Oil Pressure Solutions Mi16

[saml666 0]

The hole I drilled will prevent this from happening. No need for perspex camcovers to prove it!( Would be nice though, but won't work I'm afraid ). This is the problem and I have the cure I think...........

 

Hi Cartooner, I read the whole thread yesterday and I like your idea, its got a lot to do with the fact that drilling a hole and plugging another is a whole lot cheaper and less grief than special sump systems etc...

 

But seriously, it also seems to make sense, a genuinely simple solution - can anybody think of a reason NOT to do it?

 

What adverse effects could there be?

 

I'm especially interested as I am right on the verge of building my Mi16 engine up having got almost all the new parts for it, the ideal time to make the mod you suggest. Do I take the plunge and drill my block or how long woulld I have to wait until yours is done?

 

Whatever I do I'm afraid I won't really be able to offer any comparison info though, i.e. before/after as I'm only just doing the conversion now.

 

Did I remember right though - what you're suggesting is simply a neater, internal way of doing what the French boys have done?

 

Cheers, Sam

[Guest Cartooner]

Hi Cartooner, I read the whole thread yesterday and I like your idea, its got a lot to do with the fact that drilling a hole and plugging another is a whole lot cheaper and less grief than special sump systems etc...

 

But seriously, it also seems to make sense, a genuinely simple solution - can anybody think of a reason NOT to do it?

 

What adverse effects could there be?

 

I'm especially interested as I am right on the verge of building my Mi16 engine up having got almost all the new parts for it, the ideal time to make the mod you suggest. Do I take the plunge and drill my block or how long woulld I have to wait until yours is done?

 

Whatever I do I'm afraid I won't really be able to offer any comparison info though, i.e. before/after as I'm only just doing the conversion now.

 

Did I remember right though - what you're suggesting is simply a neater, internal way of doing what the French boys have done?

 

Cheers, Sam

 

 

Well Sam, I too was in the same position as You are now and since nobody adviced me notto drill it I just could not resist any longer. I am quit convinced this will work and just hated the idea of me not drilling the hole, assembling the engine and putting it in the car, only to read on this forum in a few months how well it works.

 

It is upto You man!

 

I'm afraid everybody will have to wait a while before my engine is finished, because I am very busy at the moment.

 

The holes the French made are on the exhaust side and positioned relatively high, so they will only start working when the head is absolutely flooded with oil. Onder breaking conditions however these will not work.

Plus You have vulnerable plumbing near the exhaust.

 

If You do go ahead and drill watch this:

 

Since my block was the guinea pig I have done some measurements and when You drill a hole of 10mm in this location under the right angle You might just miss the casting channel( yellow) alltogether, so You don't have to plug the hole . So the centre of the 10mm hole at 17mm from the no5. centre and 15mm from the ridge. Watch the angle carefully, because You don't want to end up on the ridge but in the oil channel.

 

Be very carefull not to ruin no.4 bearing cap whilst drilling and remember, look, think and than look again, think again and drill.

 

Still I must state to everbody who wants to try: YOU DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK, I CAN NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE OR WHATEVER.

 

This is how the hole looks like, looking upwards in the oil channel.(towards the head).

 

When in doubt, don't do it.

 

good luck.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Cartooner

[saml666 0]

It is upto You man!

 

I'm gonna show this to an engine builder who I trust and respect, if he can't think of a reason not to then I'll give it a go... Either way I will report back - gulp!

 

Will start rebuilding my engine the weekend after next, I have all the bits now but what a bummer - I have to go to Spain on Wednesday ... No really, I'd kinda like to get this show on the road now!

 

Sam

[Dream Weaver 2]

My only concern would be that the oil may have too much flow from the head to sump and leave the head area with less lubrication.

 

Pug may have put the hole drain in to keep the oil in the head for a while.

[Guest Cartooner]

My only concern would be that the oil may have too much flow from the head to sump and leave the head area with less lubrication.

 

Pug may have put the hole drain in to keep the oil in the head for a while.

 

 

All critical moving parts are lubricated with oil under pressure from the pump, under normal conditions most of the oil will surpass the newly drilled passage, since it's a side-exit. Only when the existing channel gets flooded the new exit will help continue flow to the sump. Since we did not do anything with the original entrance to the oilchannel, the amount of oil will still be limited by the shape and size of the original channel entrance.

 

Surely Pug would have made the channel all the way down to the sump under the oillevel if what You suggest is true and they deliberately made the channel so that it contains a colom of oil under all conditions. No way, this is true. The oilchannel ends up in mid air, just above the pump gear and will only be fully filled if the pumpgearroom and righthandside of the sump are filled.( In reverse order- first the oil is cornered in the right handside of the sump, then the oilpumpgearchamber is filled and then the oilchannel gets filled*- then the flow stops and the head gets filled. * here is where the new hole interveins!

[engine killer 6]

sorry to digging it out again,

 

i would like to know how's Cartooner's engine's extra drainage progress and result.

 

thanks.

[philfingers 5]

I'd like to know too. There does seem to be suggestions in other places that additional head draining is the way forward with this engine

[findlay 0]

My god... Something oike 2-years on and this thread still rolls forward.

 

Did you guys PM cartooner to check his results?

[pee vee 1]

very interested in this too! lol

horrid oil problems are the only thing stopping me going Mi16!

[Rom 0]

very interested in this too! lol

horrid oil problems are the only thing stopping me going Mi16!

 

I thikn thats a bit of a misconception to some extent. For road use, they suffer hardly any problems from what i gather. Though mine isnt quite in yet

Its tracks where they can really suffer. Run a search, theres loads of threads covering different ideas and solutions.

The head seems to be a main source of the starvation,retaining too much oil. There was someone who made a secondary draindown system. But i cant remember who, or to what effect.

 

I thikn most people opt for sump baffleing,as this is a lost easier. And can work to some extent to stop oil rushing from the pickup. People have also extended the pickup and various other little tweaks.

All will be revealed with a search.

[pee vee 1]

thats earlier in this thread RKKRom

i have had a look thru it all. my car

does and will continue to be used on track, so i'd love to know if

his extra drain hole cured it!

[steendp 0]

I was on track yesterday and a slow 180 degree righthand turn made the oil pressure disappear. Even when slowing down to app. 10km/t (6mph) the pressure would still decrease enough to make the warning light come on.

 

I haven't seen that problem before and the only change has been an oil change (to FS 5/40).

 

I'm looking to get the sump baffled to see wether or not that resolves my problem.

[petert 586]

I'm not sure why people get sucked in with thin oils. On the track you need something that's thicker at higher temps, like a 10W-60 or 15W-50.

 

The solutions I have suggested are race track proven, not just track day fast laps. If you're good enough to get oil surge after that you need a dry sump.

[pee vee 1]

I was on track yesterday and a slow 180 degree righthand turn made the oil pressure disappear. Even when slowing down to app. 10km/t (6mph) the pressure would still decrease enough to make the warning light come on.

 

I haven't seen that problem before and the only change has been an oil change (to FS 5/40).

 

I'm looking to get the sump baffled to see wether or not that resolves my problem.

 

 

Sadly mate, if your getting the oil light come on at 6mph then its not oil surge,

its something very wrong with the engine

unless your oil has got SO hot, that its almost not there anymore!

(or a dodgy oil pressure sender lol)

Edited September 17, 2006 by pee vee

[steendp 0]

The problem was only present at that specific turn - not others..? And it was consistent.

 

I have just changed the oil pressure sender, and the pressure at idle when oil i hot (app 120 degress according to the original sensor) i just below 2 bar. When cold the idle pressure is about 4 bar.

 

At the moment it is a no-runner (broke down on the motorway on the way home, GRR) but I will also try to change the oil to something like 10/60.

[jim21070 2]

I have to say this is one of the most interesting and absorbing threads I have read in a long time. I too concur with the thoughts expressed about oil being stuck "up top" and unable to return and would love to know if the proposed idea to cure this problem works.

 

I'd exercise caution about drilling a hole so near to a main brearing though. Seems a great way to start off a fatigue crack and grenade the engine. Oil surge is one thing but a shattered engine is quite another.

 

I would have thought a bit of external plumbing would be the way forward on this.

[nick 3]

Me and Martin (crf450) are rebuiling my Mi at the moment and while it's stripped we're looking at trying to sort out the surge problems. I have a XU10 baffled sump and windage tray for starters but it got me thinking.

 

The whole point of fitting a windage tray is to stop the crank from whipping up the oil from the sump and turning it to (useless) mist, but surely the oil spray bars do just that, defeating the object of the windage tray.

 

Why does the Mi run spray bars, but the 8v doesn't?

 

Does it produce more heat than the 8v around the piston crown?

 

The first engines that I can remember to use oil spray bars were the old GSX-R Suzukis but they were air cooled so needed the extra cooling, plus after a bit of a search on the net it seems all the other engines to use them are turbos Nissan 200sx, rover coupe turbo, etc....

 

My point is blocking the spray bars would give a healthy increase in pressure and would hopefully mean more oil getting back to the sump rather than it being sprayed straight into the path of the crank, rods etc.. and floating around the bottom end above the windage tray.

 

Has anyone ran an Mi with them blocked off?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Nick

[nick 3]

I have found this quote on another forum while doing a bit of digging regarding the above post,

 

"Be very careful how you set up your system and be prepared for counter-intuitive results. Much of the crankwalk problem in 2nd Gen 4G63 engines seems to trace back to use of the oil squirters -- weakening springs and detritus on the seats, I think. On the Porsche 928 addition of squirters was enough to push the volume of oil in the crankcase into the danger zone (again) and Porsche had to withdraw them.

 

You should have or add good windage control in an engine using them -- else why take two steps forward and one back."

 

It's from this forum post

 

Nick

[welshpug 1,657]

XU oil jets have a minimum pressure valve, so if the pressure drops for any reason they stop squirting.

 

they are also fitted to Turbo XUD's

[nick 3]

Where is the minimum oil pressure valve?

 

Nick

[TB_205GTI 1]

Just on a note - the TU 1.6 also has the oil jets under the pistons, both 8V and 16V.

[James_m 0]

How do you intend to fit the windage tray? you losing the spacer plate?

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

How do you intend to fit the windage tray? you losing the spacer plate?

We will be using a gti6 sump which looks pretty strong anyway but we'll probably end up welding some strut's in place to give it even more strength so it will do the same job as the block brace spacer thingy, incidentally I've ran Mi's on track days without the spacer plate without any problems.

The windage tray will be fastened to the main bearing bolts, we will use standard mi mains bolts with a short mounting boss welded on, this is the same way I did it on the ornamental engine I have sat in my garage.

[nick 3]

I like how you say "we"...........

 

Nick

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Is the windage tray the S16 one I had from ages ago? be interested to see if it works. How easy are the spray bars to take out? just thinking of its an easily reversible modification to leave them out for a test!