Jump to content
  • Welcome to 205GTIDrivers.com!

    Hello dear visitor! Feel free to browse but we invite you to register completely free of charge in order to enjoy the full functionality of the website.

lagonda

Fuel pump fault symptoms? 1.6CTi

Recommended Posts

lagonda
Posted (edited)

When I removed the fuel pump back in 2008, I recall it was dated around 1995, so the original (1989) pump lasted just 6 years and 80,000 odd miles. Still that pump, which is now therefore seen 29 years service, and 160,000 miles.

 

What life can I reasonably expect from one of these, and what symptoms might I expect once it is wearing out? Obviously total failure equals no starting/running ... but I don't want to get to that point!

 

I recall reading on here that replacement pumps often need modification to fit, which I'd prefer to avoid. I've seen this recently on ebay, for sale here in France;

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305536816767

 

  Also see picture of that one attached. The socket and inlet/outlet spigots at least look correct. Does this look correct and ready to fit without modification. Indeed has anyone fitted one of these? The vendor rather unhelpfully states "Brand according to arrival : Bosch, Meat & Doria, Stark ... Which probably means anything except Bosch!

s-l1600.jpg

Edited by lagonda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug
Posted (edited)

For a 1989 car with the black housing the pump itself is readily available from Autodoc for around £75 for a bosch unit, direct fit no messing.

Edited by welshpug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi Mei,

 Thanks for reply, and yes, actually late 1989. Sounds too good to be true, and unfortunately that's the case ... Autodoc France : "Type de fonctionnement: électrique · Côté d'assemblage: dans le réservoir de carburant · Numéro d'article: 0 580 310 015 · Notre prix: 359,70 € · Fabricant: BOSCH ...
309,34 € · ‎Épuisé"  ... out of stock, and that's the same for Autodoc UK, except their out of stock price is £316.60.

 

Other vendors here in France also all state out of stock ... so clearly there has been a demand for these pumps, which means I would even more hope someone can also respond re:

 

What life can I reasonably expect from one of these, and what symptoms might I expect once it is wearing out? Obviously total failure equals no starting/running ... but I don't want to get to that point!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DamirGTI

What Mei said , non Ph2 205's have different pump and housing type , as well as the fuel tank - pump type goes along with the corresponding tank as an pair ie. you can't fit late Ph2 pump in early Ph1 or Ph1.5 tank and me thinks vice versa too ..

 

Yours being '89 model it'll have pump in a black housing , with bigger "roller cell" pump inside , part No. for just the pump (housing you do not need unless broken/damaged) :

 

0 580 464 993

0 580 464 998 (this one is often around 20% cheaper than the *993 variant , they're both the same so pick one which is cheaper ..)

 

What service life to expect from the pumps , well ... i've taken apart and repaired a few of them , say from 5 of them 4 where still good for many miles of use it was just the stale fuel which made them stuck (roller cell mechanism) , both the brushes and the commutator where still good indicating it'll work for quite a long time if not left standing in stale fuel . Especially those old Bosch pumps where made very robust , just the roller cell mechanism is sensitive to fuel varnish/sediment (a the time there was leaded fuel only and unleaded but not mixed with Ethanol which is the main problem nowadays damaging fuel pumps unless they're turbine rather than roller cell suction type ..)

 

As to how they go out , it can be suddenly without a warning and it can last for a while with most often intermittent cutting in-out sensation (kinda like ignition misfire) during the driving which progressively gets worse if ignored and then to the complete failure ie. no start .

"Suddenly scenario" , it'll work for the complete day of driving , but next day it'll go bust literary over night also creating no start afterwards ... you might get it working again by hitting/tapping the pump from the top or the bottom of the tank , if it then fires up - do not turn the engine off till you finished you're journey/drive and got to the safe place where you can replace it . 

 

D

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi Damir,

 

  Many thanks, very helpful. I've been suspicious of my pump as the car still suffers from occasional cutting out. Swapped just about every ignition component with no improvement! So it looks worthwhile replacing the pump, especially as it has done such a high mileage since the previous replacement.

 

  Good news is I can see both versions you mentioned available, however the images show two screw terminals. Mine has a plug socket terminal on the casing ... can I take it that it will have this two screw terminal unit inside?!

 

Laurence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug
Posted (edited)

0580 464 998 is £76 on autodoc,  i have fitted a few, swap the terminals from the original pump, same as you do on the earlier coils.

Edited by welshpug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi Mei,

 

  Many thanks, and that's interesting: I'm seeing £89.71 (incl VAT but not P&P) on Autodoc UK. Won't be the first time I've seen higher prices looking at UK stuff here. Likewise the £111 pump from a French seller on UK ebay is less than £100 to me here in France.

 

  Will search and see who can offer best price for one of these, and buy today!

 

  Laurence

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug
Posted (edited)

Use the app, its always cheaper on there, they're Berlin based by the way :lol:

Edited by welshpug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Interesting to hear, but no smart phone ... not keen on mobile phones! Annoying not being able to do "apps" on the laptop.

 

In the event, I've ordered a Bosch 0 580 464 998 from a firm called Motostacja in Poland, €94.71 (about £81) including P&P, which hopefully will arrive in about a week's time.

 

As an aside, I've noticed the tachymetric relay gets pretty hot ... hot enough to slightly melt the plastic surrounding the terminal pins. Is that normal ... could that indicate higher than normal current draw from the pump?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DamirGTI
2 hours ago, lagonda said:

Interesting to hear, but no smart phone ... not keen on mobile phones!

 

Congratulations , me neither ! :lol:

 

Not sure about amp rating for the tachy relay , but it tends to heat up yes so certain amount of heat with the engine running is ok. . If it's cool with the engine off then no worries .

Often problem with electrics which can lead to fire is poor/sloppy connection , this loosely "make-and-brake" connection movement on wiring connection creates heat , melts connection joint surrounding plastic or any surrounding material which burns .

 

D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi Damir,

 

  Good to read ... hate the damn things. Happy to speak at the phone at home, but when I'm out I'm out!

 

  Yes, cool when off. I've closed up the Lucar type female connectors in the socket so all should be making firm contact. Therefore I'm pretty certain its the relay itself that heats up, not a connection fault.

 

Laurence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SRDT

You can also check for dry solder joints inside the relay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Oh don't worry ... our longest drive (and first hint of what a vicious ungrateful car it would prove to be) in the CTi since purchase, back in 2003, was to Waddesdon. Got within walking distance, and it stopped. And wouldn't restart. Even hours later, once cooled down. So had to hitch a lift and get a train home. Suspected this relay so bought a new one, and friend gave us a lift. Fortunately the new one did the job. Got home, looked at the original relay, and, only with a magnifying glass ... spotted dry solder joints! So, yes, resoldering both of them has pretty much been an occasional maintenance job since, including last week!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda
Posted (edited)

Hmm, have I got the right pump?! Now have the Bosch 0 580 464 998, and I've removed the "original" pump from the tank. Construction looks pretty different to the one depicted in the Haynes manual, furthermore a previous post by Mei stated "black housing" ... my "original" is beige, and it looks very much like the one pictured in my first post, even down to the blue paint dot. It only has one cut out section in the casing. It has Lucar (spade) terminals for all 4 internal connections, whereas the new pump has threaded terminals. Also the outlet is central on the new pump, but offset on the "original".

 

I'm reassured by comment that different Phases'pumps are not interchangeable, but is it possible the entire tank was replaced? The "original" pump, as mentioned before, isn't the one fitted when the car was built (late 1989) ... it is dated on the side 1/92. The Bosch number impressed on the top is 0580310003. Looks like this:

 

 s-l1600.thumb.jpg.7208c5bd8176663df8ab86075f53bb68.jpg

 So, is this Bosch 0 580 464 998 correct to fit inside that?!image.png.4974756f673867b0417bbef67ae11b54.png

 

Edited by lagonda
include photos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

If your pump is that white housing, with a JPT style plug, its a phase2.

 

 

in which case your new pump body will not fit,  you need a replacement which matches 0580 483 052     (had a pump out of a 92 cti in my hand yesterday)      apparently a systec   GSS342  walbro pump will fit, they do need the additional sleeve some are listed with as they are about 4mm smaller o.d.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi Mei,

 Thanks for response. I'm not finding 0580 483 052 or equivalents. I am finding 0580 310 015, which is also stated as a replacement for 0580 310 003 ... or at least, equivalents from other manufacturers ... presume either of these is suitable as a replacement pump for my CTi?

 

Which leads on to ... which equivalents are good, or to be avoided? I'm seeing Meat & Doria, Stark and so on.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

I'd buy a bosch one if you can find one, or get the bare pump in a walbro type.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

Sorry there was a typo in the middle there.  0580453052

 

As I said above, a systec gss342 is meant to fit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi Mei,

 

  That helps, but unfortunately I can only find one 0580453052, at €400! I'd prefer to fit a genuine Bosch item, especially if the Walbro offering is not a direct fit. Here in France, I am finding Bosch 0 580 314 075 being suggested as an alternative, and I am seeing these "in stock".. Can anyone say if 0 580 314 075 is indeed a direct replacement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

I know the one you mean,  can't find it in stock anywhere nor have I tried it in a 205.   Originality isnt everything,  especially somewhere you can't see it!

 

 

Glencoe.co.uk sell the pump amd a thin foam sleeve to pack them out to fit, making it quieter than the original.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Hi,

 

  Agree not fussed over originality here; my concern is that I want to fit and forget. The "original" has given 200,000 miles service, hence my preference for Bosch ... I don't know how other makes compare durability/quality wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
petert

Walbro  GSS-342K fits fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
welshpug

Walbro also make oem pumps, as do magnetti marelli.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lagonda

Many thanks. Unfortunately I 've only found these Walbro pumps available in USA, UK, Australia ... and ... Sweden. Not France. Stupid Brexit makes importation slow and fraught. After most of the day researching, I found this on a UK site:

 

"Genuine OE BOSCH 0580314075 Electric Fuel Pump Replaces 0 580 453 052

Constantly evolving technologies and state-of-the-art manufacturing over the past 35 years allow Bosch to supply fuel pumps with tight tolerances and compact design, making way for the latest advancement — turbine pump technology. This revolutionary technology replaces older pump designs, providing improved drivability and reduced hot-start problems.

·  Replacement pump designed to match old pump's dimensions and appearance, ensuring a precise fit

·  Virtually eliminates fuel pulsation for improved drivability and longer life

·  Precision, spin-balanced, polymer-encased armature reduces noise

·  Aftermarket recognition for premium quality and innovation"

 

 So, there we have the (hopefully!) definitive answer, with the bonus that this is not just an equivalent, but an improved version. I've ordered one already from a firm in Brittany.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×