205 T16 replica build

[Berglundracing 27]

Hi,

My first post in this Forum.

I thought this would be the right forum and I hope to get some comments to help me continue the build to the end.

I have always loved  the group B rallycars and now after my motobike  race career I have to set my mind on a new project.

I havent seen any 205 T16 midEngine 4wd builds, only a ton of S1 replica cars so i hope this build would be interesting.

I am 54 years so this would probably  be a  pensioner project.

I am from Sweden so excuse my writing.

Bought a rustfree XS and started to collect parts.......

Edited August 18, 2022 by Berglundracing

[SRDT 186]

Welcome to this forum.

As to why you find many Audi replicas let's say that a group B Audi is still close to a road car. Even a good Sport Quattro replica can be made with a 2 doors 80, Quattro floorpan and S2 or S4 powertrain.

If you try that with a 205 not much will be left at the end. The closest production engine is the XU9J4 but you will hit a snag with the transmission as it's only based on the SM/C35/Esprit gearbox with two 505 diff. They are way too much custom bits in there to try to make one yourself.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

1 hour ago, Berglundracing said:

I have always loved  the group B rallycars and now after my motobike  race career I have to set my mind on a new project. 

I havent seen any 205 T16 midEngine 4wd builds, only a ton of S1 replica cars so i hope this build would be interesting. 

Welcome to the forum. As SRDT said the 205 Turbo16 and the 205 do not have that much in common afaik. I have a lot of PDF's which I can share if you want, downloaded these a few years ago from the PTS website. I don't know if they still are available on their website.

 

23 minutes ago, SRDT said:

[...]

 

 

At least this picture confirms for me that these Peugeots leaked from factory, even the very fast ones

Edited August 18, 2022 by Thijs_Rallye

[Berglundracing 27]

On 8/18/2022 at 11:19 PM, Thijs_Rallye said:

Welcome to the forum. As SRDT said the 205 Turbo16 and the 205 do not have that much in common afaik. I have a lot of PDF's which I can share if you want, downloaded these a few years ago from the PTS website. I don't know if they still are available on their website.

 

 

 

At least this picture confirms for me that these Peugeots leaked from factory, even the very fast ones

This project will not be 100% true but the design will be the same. I have parts from another resting project I will  use, A Subaru Impreza Gt. I use the rear diff and drivetrain except the gearbox.

In the future i maybe I change to dubble a-arms in the front but for now it will  be mcpherson. In the rear i probably have to modify the suspension though the forward link will interfere with the engine. I will use VW 1.8T with Audi 01E gearbox. 
 

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

4 minutes ago, Berglundracing said:

I will use VW 1.8T with Audi 01E gearbox.

That should be able to generate some poke. Can the crown wheel be swapped to the other side (to reverse the drive direction) in those 01E boxes like they could on the old T1,2,3 bus boxes?

205 T16 - Dessins Techniques.pdf

205 T16 - Notice prépa Boite de Vitesses.pdf

205 T16 - Notice prépa Moteur.pdf

[Berglundracing 27]

6 hours ago, Thijs_Rallye said:

That should be able to generate some poke. Can the crown wheel be swapped to the other side (to reverse the drive direction) in those 01E boxes like they could on the old T1,2,3 bus boxes?

205 T16 - Dessins Techniques.pdf

205 T16 - Notice prépa Boite de Vitesses.pdf

205 T16 - Notice prépa Moteur.pdf

I flip the front diff to get right rotation but havent figured our of it would be some speed reduktion.......? I will use the Subaru rear diff in front also

[Berglundracing 27]

Thx for files 

[SRDT 186]

Can you flip the diff on the VW gearbox? Many transaxle don't allow it. The Citroën gearbox is reversed inside the Esprit but the engine also turn in the opposite direction, when Maserati used this gearbox for the Merak it was in fact a mirror copy of the original gearbox casing, that was the only way to have the diff on the other side.

 

If the VW and Subaru engines turn in the same direction then you probably need to put the rear diff upside down, more importantly you need the same final drive on the front and rear diff. I think some 4WD systems are off by a few % but you should look more into it if you want to go this way.

[Leslie green 116]

Should be an amazing project good luck with it . 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Leslie green

[petert 601]

There is definitely a 205 on this site with an Mi16x4 drive train. Obviously the tunnel and rear end is heavily modified to suit. Someone will know the link. Mid-engine is next level though.

Edited August 21, 2022 by petert

[Berglundracing 27]

I dont mean  to flip the diff in the gearbox. It will  be untuched but the diff in front have to be fliped. Made an advanced Caddrawing mostly to explain  to my self what I am trying to do

Talked to an Company in Sweden which fabricate  race gearboxes and suspension(Sellholm) They told me that I would keep the front and middle diff open but rear locked.

205T16.pdf

[SRDT 186]

I see now, you're right that you need to find the correct final drives for both the gearbox and diff. You probably need long diesel final drives so that even with two of them it's not too short. You could also start in 2nd gear like if it was a 5 speed dogleg gearbox.

 

The original had ZF self locking diff front and rear and a center diff + viscous coupling sending more power to the rear. Obviously the stock Audi diff isn't supposed to do that.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

Isn't the 01E a longitudinal gearbox? What am I missing here, because if I look at your PDF drawing it looks to be drawn transversely. That was also why I was wondering how to change the rotation direction of the gearbox.

[Berglundracing 27]

26 minutes ago, Thijs_Rallye said:

Isn't the 01E a longitudinal gearbox? What am I missing here, because if I look at your PDF drawing it looks to be drawn transversely. That was also why I was wondering how to change the rotation direction of the gearbox.

I use the fwd 01E gearbox. Popular in midengine builds like gt40. In The future i would rather use a sequentual transaxel gearbox like Hewland etc. Not in my budget now.

I will build the car more heavy  than the original 205. I would like to have the ability to use it in Rally raid  T1 class. Probably the only competition class a homebuilt car could compete  in?
It would be nice to survive  a crasch and also have a solid base.

I have started to reinforce the body.

Vatanen was quite lucky in Argentina

 

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

This looks like it could be a very interesting build. This could be the build that @petert mentioned, hopefully it is of some use to you 

 

[SRDT 186]

Thijs he is using the Audi gearbox the same way than Peugeot did with the Citroën gearbox. The thing is that Peugeot replaced the final drive by one with much less reduction compared to a regular final drive.

Some more Turbo 16 stuff:

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1611151201/homologation_form_number_262_group_b.pdf

http://www.106maxi.co.uk/mediapool/78/788866/data/205_T16_Schematic_Drawings.pdf

http://www.106maxi.co.uk/mediapool/78/788866/data/205_T16_Parts_Document.pdf

[wicked 105 3 Cars]

Impressive ambition!

I hope you'll be able to finish it. Not many big scale project make it to the end.

I have a spare CTI (shell) in my shed and was thinking of a similar build once my GTI is finished, but then with a hybrid4 drive line (swapped; electrical motors on front wheel, ICE on rears). Would allow to have RWD-only mode as well....

(Probably it will end up as RWD only for sake of simplicity....)

Edited August 23, 2022 by wicked

[Berglundracing 27]

19 hours ago, SRDT said:

Thijs he is using the Audi gearbox the same way than Peugeot did with the Citroën gearbox. The thing is that Peugeot replaced the final drive by one with much less reduction compared to a regular final drive.

Some more Turbo 16 stuff:

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1611151201/homologation_form_number_262_group_b.pdf

http://www.106maxi.co.uk/mediapool/78/788866/data/205_T16_Schematic_Drawings.pdf

http://www.106maxi.co.uk/mediapool/78/788866/data/205_T16_Parts_Document.pdf

This was great! Lot  of questions is now answered. How the body looks underneath etc. etc. etc.
Thanks!

Went on a roadtrip with my son to Peugeot museum in France a couple of weeks ago to see the 205 T16 live for the first time. This info was even better!

On the way home we humiliated some Porsche GT3 RS on the Nordschleife....not

[Berglundracing 27]

12 minutes ago, wicked said:

Impressive ambition!

I hope you'll be able to finish it. Not many big scale project make it to the end.

I have a spare CTI (shell) in my shed and was thinking of a similar build once my GTI is finished, but then with a hybrid4 drive line (swapped; electrical motors on front wheel, ICE on rears). Would allow to have RWD-only mode as well....

(Probably it will end up as RWD only for sake of simplicity....)

I will try to keep it as simple as possible to give me a fair chance

Edited August 23, 2022 by Berglundracing

[Berglundracing 27]

Right now I am trying to mockup the suspension, drivning position, and pedals. I dont have a jig But will try to get it right anyway. Talked to a car scrap? and they  will measure the cc mountingpoints on the Subaru Impreza frontsuspension so I could attach with 205T16 car widht. I will probably have to modifye the suspension tower.

[wicked 105 3 Cars]

From which model Impreza will you take the parts? (I have a GT in my shed). 

 

The track width is significant wider on an Impreza; 131cm for 1.9 GTI (front) vs 146.5cm for GT turbo.

Edited August 25, 2022 by wicked

[wicked 105 3 Cars]

Maybe an expensive option, but would a Audi R8 drive train not be easier? (With a big assumption you can make it fit to the 1.8T engine...)

No need to swap directions... 

[SRDT 186]

At one point real Turbo 16 parts will start to be cheaper... also most drivetrains won't be as compact as a transverse inline four stuck between the copilot seat and the rear wheel arch:

[Berglundracing 27]

T16 have 1,43 trackwidth, quite close to The Subaru  Impreza Gt 1997 I have the drivetrain from.

Wicked, could you mesure  the width between Inner mountingpoints of the controlarm?
I dont have wheels and brake discs so i cant mesure the width.

I have mesured the space of the VWengine/audigearbox and it Will fit good. It was a gamble when I bought it but it came through.

 

I want the car to be as close as possible to the T16 from the outside, also looking in. Therefore the engine have to be transverse mounted. I will try to copy  the Air intakt which are significant of the T16.

[SRDT 186]

If you want to use the original ignition coils VALEO 245129 are a close match, just another connector. Original distributorless ignition is closely related to the one used on the Citroën CX but coils are NLA.

On the dash the boost gauge is a modified aircraft instrument, be it Peugeot, Renault or Citroën they all used it at some point.

The big red warning light is from a 2CV

https://www.citroparts.com/fr/store/acheter-des-pieces-citroen-2cv/equipement/instruments-de-bord/voyant-rouge-gros-diam-egrave-tre-sans-ampoule-2cv-ami-dyane-mehari-1105521