Upwards pointing wishbones

[Arthur 12]

[Arthur 12]

First hub the bearing was complete shot. Second was without play, but still no were near 2,5 degrees. 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

When I measure the hubs on my car I can clearly see the angle of the damper to the hub plane. Doesnt really matter whether I measure from the disk or hub but the offset rises 5 mm when I go up 140mm and that would give me 2 deg. Hard to do it right of course but the diff. is obvious. Looks like the offset is 18 mm more. 
 

Not sure what to conclude. Assuming 205 is indeed 2 deg, and these are 0. But the offset is also more. Will it result in about the same camber with equal long wishbone yet only more vertical damper.  
 

Ifsothenwhat???

 

Will 18mm more wishbone then give me about 2 deg camber and damper back to 2 deg? 
 

All geometrics equal, would the vertical damper even matter?

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

I think this is the case: 

 

(88 should be 92 and 87,5 should be 92,5 but I hope your catch my draft)

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Arthur

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Get yourself a magnetic inclinometer, massively helpful for playing around with stuff like this. 
 

id personally get the hub bolted to the car with the spring removed, set the hub up where you want it and have a measure. 

[Arthur 12]

Yes, I’ll order one. Above does however explain why the 206 shafts aren’t longer while the carrier offset is. And maybe also explain why nobody goes this route. 90 degrees carries and 18mm pins will put most off I think.

 

But I see possibilities when one does tubulars AND roll centre kit with 18mm pinout. I’ve found 18 x 1,5 uniballs that seem perfect. 95 kN static load. 18mm hole also so an 12,9 m18 bolt in the carries with an extra cone and I’m about done. I could even test it bolted, and weld it off after I’m happy. 
 

Is 95 kN suffient?  

[welshpug 1,657]

206 shafts are not any longer as the track width is not a huge amiuny wider than a 205, and the strut tops are actually a little narrower.

 

Dont have a 206 to hand to compare, but the publised track widths are 55mm different.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

2 hours ago, welshpug said:

Dont have a 206 to hand to compare, but the publised track widths are 55mm different.

205 GTI vs 206 GTI is 60mm according to what I've found, but the 206 runs higher ET rims, so the suspension/drive train must be 80mm (60mm +2*10mm) wider?

 

5 hours ago, Arthur said:

But I see possibilities when one does tubulars AND roll centre kit with 18mm pinout. I’ve found 18 x 1,5 uniballs that seem perfect. 95 kN static load. 18mm hole also so an 12,9 m18 bolt in the carries with an extra cone and I’m about done. I could even test it bolted, and weld it off after I’m happy. 

Take automotive quality uniballs; it is the dynamic load (shocks) that will kill them, not the static load.  

[Arthur 12]

I’m sorry but I don’t follow.

 

I measured the 206 shaft 600 and 900 but not very accurate. 588 and 872 suggested before by wicked seems more likely then the 630 and 925 I thought they were.  Dunno where I got that data.
 

So hindsight 206 shafts are too short. 
 

I don’t grasp what strut width has to do with it? More room for camber? My plan involves adjustments at the arms so not much more room needed up top. 
 

The uniballs are automotive chassis things but they don’t list dynamic loads. Looks solid though. 
 

https://www.chassisparts.com

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

Thinking about it. 95kN is 9,6 tons. So even when dynamic load is 1/10 the car would break in 2 pieces before that ball gives way imo. 

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

They won't break, but will wear out quicker. 

 

What's you plan with chassis btw? Will you fit wide arches or dimma kit? If you say that 206 axles are too short, you must be going really wide? (given that you need to add 40mm each side to fit 206 axles properly)

 

[Arthur 12]

Well

 

205 GTI axles length (SKF):
567+840 = 1407mm

206 GTI axles length (SKF):
588+892 = 1480mm

 

My data was

 

205     600 - 840

309     610 - 850

306     620 - 877

206     630 - 925

 

Never mind the way brands measure or where my data is from, delta's seem to match. So the short one is + 21 and the long one is + 52. Plus 21 might be perfect provided my paint above is correct. And I would rather have to shorten...

 

So assuming +21 is perfect; i think I would have 42+8=50 mm extra track width.

I don't know what wicked means with the sorter stub. The hubs themselves, being the bigger CV joint with 25 teeth will also result in thicket hubs, i guess.

 

At the rim/arch it will be a little bit less then 50 because the camber will also change. Might just clear my (fake fibre glass maxi motorsport) euro ralley arches. I have the C5 alu "steelies" as well. 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

No one who has a spare 205 hub he could measure for me? Im after the hub to damper offset like I measured above. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

This mockup seems to confirm my paint above. (shaft springs removed) 

 

Obviously not the most accurate but it looks like I'll get plus 25mm track and thus also maybe a tad too much camber for a street car at about 2.5 neg. Or I'll have to shorten them just a bit. or maybe only the long one since the gearbox might now be a tad too much to the right sitting on the bench like this. 

 

@petert what would heaps of caster be? One heap being 2 degrees so heaps being 4 degrees? 2.5 camber 4 caster. Would that be too much for a street car? 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Arthur

[petert 588]

+4º is about the limit before the tyre fouls on the front bumper. I run +6º, which is about the limit. Do you run power steering?

[Arthur 12]

No power steering 

[petert 588]

You probably won't enjoy 4º of caster then.

 

[Arthur 12]

To be honest, that didn't yet cross my mind indeed. I was thinking to add it with a gm electric ps motor, but it's not really needed that much. It surprised me even that it has not gotten worse then with the XY engine, switching to the TU5JP4s.  The wheel all in the front near the bumper would also look weird. So maybe I'll settle for a bit less castor.  

 

What about these? Are they any good?. Where the Fruck would the bearing sit when you apply these? Will the original strut bearing fall in that chamber underneath? 

[welshpug 1,657]

They are for coilovers, not for standard spring.

[Arthur 12]

O well. Measured the axles better now with the springs removed.

 

595 and 895 is what I found. Inners are 33 mm CV's and the outer those 6 ball type I always forget the name off. And the actual shaft itself, with the straight piece removed from the right-hand one, the difference it 20mm. The right one still being 20mm longer. I don't know what that tells us. 406 shafts look the same XU and EW. I can't grasp why 206 should be more wider to the right then the left. That would mean a BE for EW has not only a different bell housing, but also an different bracket for under the battery. 

 

I did notice the 307 BE-tu also had a little bit different bracket there, some 15mm back and inner to the "normal" hole. I had to remove that and fit a standard pin in the "normal" hole to get it correct in the 205. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Arthur

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

14 minutes ago, Arthur said:

6 ball type

Rzeppa .

[welshpug 1,657]

Early 206 casing works fine in a 205, they sit laterally different  in a 206 as evident by your measurements

[petert 588]

3 hours ago, Arthur said:

To be honest, that didn't yet cross my mind indeed. I was thinking to add it with a gm electric ps motor, but it's not really needed that much.

 

When you're up near 6º is puts a lot of load of the PAS. So much so, that you're effectively jacking up the side of the car with the hydraulics. The fluid becomes very hot and needs to have adequate cooling. Mine runs at +90ºC with the standard return cooling tube.

[Arthur 12]

Did some more measurements on the shafts. With the springs fitted, compressed length is about 5mm more. The are a fair bit better then 1.6/diesel shafts. The inner cv as well. A fully closed case. Who ever designed the boot with metal can cv’s should stil be hit with a stick even after all these years.  
 

What strikes me is the amount of bandwidth in the operating length so to say. It’s about 35mm. If it’s that much, can’t imagine a 205 shaft dropping out with 309 wishbones. Maybe it’s just the design of different brands. Maybe they sit in the middle of that 35mm, maybe 205 shafts have less play. 
 

Would anyone have an idea where the hollow part of the axle begins? I was thinking to cut it right at that point. Machine the solid part down to the inner D of the hollow part and so sleeve it before welding in one go. 

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

1 hour ago, Arthur said:

. If it’s that much, can’t imagine a 205 shaft dropping out with 309 wishbones.

 

From experience

 

They can and do

 

Even more so if you start altering camber/caster.