Upwards pointing wishbones

[Arthur 12]

Gents. Having read the "how to not mod your suspension" again since a few years I was wondering about something. Last step in my project is the suspension and this is coming near now. I have B6 with eibach sprins. Took the 206 ones because I have the kinda heavy TU5TP4s, but that was quite high. Changed to the 205 springs and it looks good now. But the wishbones are about horizontal. Maybe even slightly upwards. 

 

I've seen the interesting option to lower the pivot point on the hubs. Since i also need/want to upgrade to 82mm hubs, that might be a 3 bird one stone thing i could do. I might be able to change to 82mm bearing, add camber and solve the wishbone angle.

 

But what about the other pivot point in the subframe? Would it be possible to change this pivot point say 20mm upwards and 20mm outwards. Would that change the geometry much more than lowering the pivot point at the hub? 

 

This idea is a little bit fed by the fact 1.9 hubs are rare as rocking horse poop here and changing these kind of things might give me the opportunity to get 306 hubs and maybe even shafts, or 206 shafts. If I have to change relative big things, I might as well add a little more to compensate for the 306 camber lost from 306 hubs. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Arthur

[petert 588]

Is this a race car? I wouldn't get hung up about the angle. It's more important to get the geometry correct. I'd definitely change to 306 hubs but more importantly make some adjustable wishbones, that give both camber and caster adjustment. This can only be done be cutting off the rear arm pickup points and welding them back on at an angle. You need to add caster and heaps of it.

[Arthur 12]

Hi

 

No, not a racer, so huge camber is not needed. I was just thinking to go to the big CV's and 266 discs with 306 hubs. on 1.6 shafts now.... 

 

And then addressing the camber loss from the hubs, but while I'm at it I might just as well go a bit beyond going back to standard camber. 1,5 - 2 degree-ish seems nice for a non racer to me. And since I would need other shafts anyway, I would also just as well go 306 shafts since 309 is also rare and 306 are + 20mm afaik. 

 

If the rear point needs to be welded on at angle one might just as well start with a non gti subframe, right? I thought this roll centre thing was a big issue. A roll centre kit might just as well be an option. I have a lathe and a tig welder, so making something would be no rocket science for me. might even put caster in the mix then. Custom (adjustable) wishbones also should be doable for me. Personally I would opt for a compbrake type solution but with L or even H beam in the mix. (If I would have to design myself)  My mom knows and I will bend easier than an L !

 

Just after the best bang for buck (and labour) here. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Arthur

[petert 588]

Compbrake arms are rubbish and fail easily. Tubular is the way to go. Adding caster increases camber when you turn. I'd aim for -1.5 camber and +4 caster. You can modify the GTi frame quite easily. Have a look at Satchell engineering for inspiration. There are heaps of photos on FB.

[Arthur 12]

Yes, I've seen the Satchell solution. Looks nice. Tubular might even be easier. Just make sure to drill and tap the thread after welding is what my gut is telling me. I'll google a bit more. Tubular with balljoint also makes life far easier to make a roll center extension piece. And for that matter, even 306 hubs with 18mm pins would do if I'd take that route. Stronger even i'd say. I'd would not know how the yearly checkup in the Netherlands would feel when they see those kind of parts though. I'l ask around here. 

 

Id rather have a second subframe to work on while the mine is still under the car. And since gti subframes are going for 5 times the value of non gti I would prefer to mod a non gti. Noted about the camber and caster!

[Arthur 12]

One thing I did forget to mention. I have only one thing against tubular wishbones. That is it's so obvious they're not standard, and I still need safety checks every 2 years. Every noob can see they are aftermarket. And I think an modified subframe, well welded and painted, will not be seen by the surveyor. But they will never see the diff between 306 and 205 parts.

[petert 588]

True, they may not be road legal. I guess modifying the standard pickups will get you in the range, but you'll still need to move the top of the strut and fit longer driveshafts, lengthen the originals.

[joris_andriesse 8]

@Arthur, It's a bit depending on the person doing the check, but aftermarket wishbones shouldn't be a problem. Wishbones are being checked on play and as long as what you have is sollid, it should be fine.
https://apk-handboek.rdw.nl/personenautos/assen/fuseepennenlageringenbussen-en-kogels

[Arthur 12]

Thanks Joris

 

@Petert. If I do go down the subframe route, I'm opting to take an non gti and cut of the front pivots also completely. Then take an 2 u profiles and put that in the frame front and rear pivots. Obviously they would need a big cutout for the beams of the subframe and the sump, but I'd keep the u beam intact as far as possible until after welding it to the frame. That would insure the pivots align properly. Then cutout the rest where the sump is. If I manage to keep a small L section in the front beam, id have a lower brace in the process. Easy to add a brace if not.

 

I could indeed choose to add caster while I'm at it. In fact I think I must add caster, otherwise the arb would hit the rear pickup if it's more out. Pivots 20mm out AND somewhat to the front at the same time might just solve that. or I need to bin the arb. Since I only have the b6's and billsteins, I think I can't go without front arb. I reccon that's too much for a non- racer. I have a 106 24mm arb in the shed for the rear I first want to try. Put that in, try with front arb and with disconnected front arb first and see what the roll/oversteer is like first. (At the moment I have a lot of inner wheel wheelspin but the understeer is not huge)

 

 

I might as well take u-beams that are too wide for the wishbones and put some rings in the mix to be able to re-adjust some caster after the welding. Otherwise this "route" will fix whatever I choose to take for camber and caster. I'll try and source 306 hubs first also. I might as well make tubulars if it's indeed no problem. I'll ask the "guy" when I bring it this afternoon.

 

I very dirty moc to show what I mean:

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

It there no info on the camber of 206/206 hubs?

[petert 588]

No idea about 206 hubs, sorry.

 

I don't run a front ARB, as it interferes with rear tubular arm. If you have enough rear ARB and torsion bar, you don't need one.

[Arthur 12]

Mot (apk) “guy” confirms they only look at play. Government (rdw) is another story. So when I go tubular I must first register the engine at rdw and then go tubular. 

[Arthur 12]

I’ve got an offer from local scap chap I can get 206 hubs no cure no pay. In a couple of weeks I could have 206 hubs carriers to measure. Anyone have 205 hub carriers spare to measure?  

[Arthur 12]

Hi.

 

I have 206 hubs on the shelf now. (And 266 brakes, 206 gti shafts and a spare subframe. Bit hard to measure but it looks like the damper on this is about 1 to 1,5 degree’s inwards from parallel to the hub plane. Anyone know what the 205 is? 

 

 

[welshpug 1,657]

No idea but it will be interesting to find out, qute surprised nobody had tried them, to my knowledge  at least.

 

Are they 16 or 18mm pins on the balljoints?

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

206 hubs use an 18mm pin. The offset between the damper attachment/hole and the drive flange is much bigger than a 205, they would add around 40mm track width to a 205 (from memory) and obviously need wider wishbones and longer driveshafts. I’ve always thought 206 hubs could be a another soloution for wide tracking a 205 or 306.

 

damper inclination is similar to a 205, around 2-2.5 degrees for both IIRC. Kind of irrelevant though considering the big offset difference. 

[Arthur 12]

Oké. Well I can bring them back for same money if not suited but I can measure now. The only 205 hubs I have are under my car though. 18 mm indeed, but since I would like to add roll center thing, that might be better. What is a bit strange is 206 short axle is plus 20mm, as opposed to plus 10 mm from 309. But the long one is plus 85mm according my data. So is the EW/BE in a 206 hung more to the left in a 206? 
 

would it ad 40 mm total? 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Arthur

[welshpug 1,657]

Its not quite that much as the later big diff inner cv spline  is shorter

[Arthur 12]

Would I have that on my BE4r for TU5? 307/picassa box

Edited June 1, 2022 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

I have a spare be4r lying around also. I would gladly make a project topic, donate info to the hub sticky or help to archive however admin feels fit

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

2 hours ago, welshpug said:

Its not quite that much as the later big diff inner cv spline  is shorter

But that would compensate completely for the 65mm difference?

 

Did you also look into mod 206 subframe (big time) to get it under a 205? Would allow to reuse the 206 wish bones as well. 

[Arthur 12]

Sorry for not being clear. The spare subframe is standard 205, so I can take my time on the project. The rest is 206.
 

In fact I went for 206 axles because I would rather have to shorten them instead of too short. A hollow axle even so not too scared and easier to tig weld it.  
 

My archive tels me 206 gti is 630 left, 925 right. Total 110 more then 600 - 845 from 1.6/diesel/automatic. Quite a lot. It varies between brands though. Skf / spidan / NGK / QH

 

my archive might be incorrect 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Arthur

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

I think you have an incorrect right axle:

 

Track widths:
205GTI 1383 
206GTI 1443 mm
-------
  60 mm / 2 = 30mm per side

 

Standard ET difference ET28-ET18 = 10mm/side

=> Front train 206 GTI should be 30+10mm=40mm wider per side for 206GTI 

 

 

Seems to match with the axles. 

205 GTI axles length (SKF):
567+840 = 1407mm

206 GTI axles length (SKF):
588+892 = 1480mm
----------------
  72mm+8mm shorter stub / 2 = 40mm per side

 

 

On the subframe; I did get want you want to do with the subframe, but was just wondering if you also had a look at the 206 subframe. 

[Arthur 12]

Nope. 206 subframe is not even near simulator, right? 

[Arthur 12]

I’ve measured the axles. More like 600 900 compressed. So my archive is wrong. 
 

having scrap metal collection payed off though. 
 

measuring the “damper” a 2nd time somewhere else and calculate the angle gave me only an angle of almost none. Can’t be correct imo. 
 

Angle of the pin is about 12 deg relative to the damper. 
 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Arthur