Mi16 205 GTI Swap Questions.

[camarda 0]

I want to do a 205 gti mi16 swap.

My mechanic who I am close friends with has agreed to help me but he has no idea about how to do the swap.

I found an Mi16 long block complete motor for sale, 220,000 km it has no hoses and no ecu. The wiring loom is apparently crappy but will send pics when i get it through.

While i attempt to hold myself off from buying this to put into my 205 GTI I have some questions about the conversion.

I can find a few ECUs on ebay, one example is:

Peugeot ECU Control Module Unit 405 MI16 #: 0261200161 BOSCH $130 USD including shipping

What is the difference with the ECU models and do all of them work, any issues to look out for, do some work better than others.

Ideally I wait until I find a complete engine with ECU and loom but would this suffice if the loom is of satisfactory standard.
Does anyone know the rough cost of redoing the rings, crank bearings and head gasket for failsafe on an mi16. Any other seals etc common to need doing.

Now for what i know and what I want to know.

What i know:

- I will need to make a block to angle the exhaust down to clear the bulkhead, currently sorting this.
- I will need to grind the radiator shroud to clear the inlet manifold.

What i want to know:

- Are the engine, ecu and loom the only required things for the swap, that is.

• All the cooling system of the original 1.9 8v plugs straight in.
• All the other stuff fit straight in?
  • Does anyone have a coolant pipe diagram?
• What modifications do i need to make to the 405 Mi16 loom (what cables need to be spliced into it)
• Will the exhaust manifold bolt onto the original 205 exhaust once angled correctly.

Given I have the engine prepared with radiator shroud ground and exhaust angling block ready, ecu, wiring loom ready, is this a job that can be done over a weekend with myself (tinkerer, mainly motorbikes) and a skilled mechanic working together.

Also, if anyone who lives in Brisbane or the Gold Coast has done the swap before let me know if you can help for $. 

Regards,

Chris

Edited February 28, 2022 by camarda

[Anthony 1,003]

Hi Chris,

 

You'll find lots of information on Mi16 conversions if you do a search, as it's been discussed in depth over the years.  Searching the site using Google rather than the forum search tends to work better in my experience - just add site:205gtidrivers.com to the end of your Google search

 

In terms of ECU's and looms, there's effectively three different types found on 1.9 Mi16 engines.

 

ML4.1 management

M1.3 management (without CAT)

M1.3 management (with CAT)

 

The ECU part numbers for each type of management are as follows:

 

0 261 200 119 - ML4.1

0 261 200 125 - ML4.1

0 261 200 139 - ML4.1

0 261 200 140 - ML4.1

 

0 261 200 161 - M1.3 with CAT

 

0 261 200 354 - M1.3 without CAT

0 261 200 355 - M1.3 without CAT

 

ML4.1 management uses a loom where the ECU plug has 2 rows of pins - typically referred to as a "2-row" loom.  M1.3 management uses a loom where the ECU plug has 3 rows of pins - typically referred to has a "3-row" loom.

 

The ECU and loom need to be of the same type - you can't use an ML4.1 ECU with a 2-row connector on a M1.3 loom with a 3-row connector, but otherwise they're interchangeable.  Note that M1.3 requires a knock sensor on the front of the block, whereas earlier ML4.1 management did not need this and it won't be present on an early engine (but can be easily retrofitted by swapping the stud into the main bearing cap and adding the sensor)

 

I'm not sure whether they fare better in the warmer Oz climate, but certainly here in the UK most original Mi16 looms are usually in quite poor condition and liable to cause long-term reliability issues and running niggles if used without being repaired or rebuilt as required.  They're fairly simple looms by modern standard, and with the correct tools and a methodical approach it's fairly easy to build a fresh loom, especially if you have a complete donor loom to check against.

[camarda 0]

Thanks Anthony for this information on the ECUs will keep it in mind when looking for one

 

I have spent quite a few hours reading on this forum and have only managed to figure out what i posted above regarding exhaust and inlet manifold and tilting the brake master cylinder. Not much I can find about cooling etc.

 

So, with the cooling system, the whole original 8v system of hoses just goes straight on right? And every other weird and wonderful thing that connects to the engine. All there?

 

Essentially what i'm asking is that, assuming I have ECU, engine and loom. Is everything else I need is available from the running 205 itself. 

 

Cheers

[Anthony 1,003]

Baker-BM sells a complete coolant hose set designed with a 205 Mi16 in mind, but I guess that's probably not the cheapest by the time you've imported it down under.

 

The 8v coolant hoses mostly fit - there's two sizes of lower rear hose, the top radiator hose isn't a perfect fit (but works) and ideally you want the late Ph2 heater-thermostat hose.  You'll need some blanks depending on whether you're retaining the heater rail across the back of the block and assuming that you're removing the oil-water heat exchanger.

 

Standard radiator is fine, just cut the cowling back to pull the radiator forward to give clearance with the inlet manifold.  I'd strongly suggest an uprated (so-called "Group N") lower engine mount bush to limit the forward-back rocking of the engine as you come on and off the throttle.

 

Exhaust manifold you've a few options - either a re-angling plate (I believe Petert still sells these in Oz), cutting and welding the manifold, or using an aftermarket 4-2-1 style manifold.  Latter is the best and typically gains a few HP, but is the most expensive too - again, I'm not sure what availability/pricing is like in Oz, but they're around £500 GBP here in the UK.

 

I've never needed to tilt the MC on any of the 205 Mi16 conversions that I've done, but there is a surprising variation in tolerances between different shells.  I've always found that if you push the engine as far to the off (drivers) side as possible then it normally clears the MC without additional measures, and certainly it's much better in that regard than the later GTi-6 engine.

 

Hope that helps.

[camarda 0]

Awesome thanks for that Anthony. 

 

I had a call with peter and unfortunately he no longer sells the plate.

 

I am going to make my own. I read somewhere that a 10mm to 5mm angle using the exhaust gasket as a guide works great. Going to call some steel workshops tomorrow.

 

- What is the advantage of removing the water-oil heat exchanger?

 

Thats good to hear about the master cylinder, maybe I was reading a GTI-6 thread.

 

If you don't mind, are you able to email me at christophercamarda1@gmail.com with your phone number if i can call you to have a quick chat about the swap (email to avoid posting your number on forum) ?

 

Otherwise, can continue to chat on here.

 

I will document as I go to ensure any newcomers can see a recent thread with all the questions I have. 

 

[SRDT 175]

Is your 205 GTI a 122hp model?

The XU9JAZ ECU is also a ML1.3 so the loom is pretty similar to what you need for à 55 pin XU9J4. It lacks the wires for the knock sensor and idle valve but that's only adding a few wires instead of making/adapting a new loom.

Other interesting looms both in 35 or 55 pins are the ones from the BX 16v : the 405 loom is a bit short because the ECU isn't inside the passenger compartment but the BX is the opposite as the ECU is under the front seat. You just keep the extra wire lenght under the dash and you're good.

[petert 586]

7 hours ago, SRDT said:

Is your 205 GTI a 122hp model?

The XU9JAZ ECU is also a ML1.3 so the loom is pretty similar to what you need for à 55 pin XU9J4. It lacks the wires for the knock sensor and idle valve but that's only adding a few wires instead of making/adapting a new loom.

Other interesting looms both in 35 or 55 pins are the ones from the BX 16v : the 405 loom is a bit short because the ECU isn't inside the passenger compartment but the BX is the opposite as the ECU is under the front seat. You just keep the extra wire lenght under the dash and you're good.

I've just done exactly that for someone here, ie added knock and ICV. It's a bit more work than it sounds and you need the right pin removal tools. If it's an early Jetronic car, it's easier to use the Mi16 loom, along with the matching black and brown plugs of the chassis (+150mm of wire) from behind the 405 LH headlight. Then it becomes easy plug & play. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. Did someone else ask the same question elsewhere?

 

The BX16V loom is a pain, because every wire is green. Thus you're totally reliant on the numbers on each end and a multi-meter.

 

The BX16V ECU ending in 158 is identical to the Mi16 161 ECU.

 

The best engine mount to use is the Race version of the VibraTechnics mount. It's only 60mm high compared to 75mm for the Road version. Thus it all but eliminates master cylinder clearance issues on a RH drive car with a 1.9L engine.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by petert