CTi lower suspension arm joint test for play

[lagonda 42]

Just had my Controle Technique (French MoT) done, and my CTi has failed due to excessive play in this (nearside) ball joint. This seems to be a favoured failure point over here. I replaced both NS and OS back in 2014 with Motaquip parts, and I'm a bit surprised one has worn out already. One time it failed, I found that the ball pin was actually loose in the hub carrier clamp, so it was simply a case of tightening the pinch bolt.

 

I might find that that is what has happened here, but I did check the nuts for tightness before taking the car. The main problem for me is that the testers here seem to find play in this ball joint where I find none. So ... the question is .... what is a good test for this component?

 

Don't forget that the bean counters at Peugeot ensured that the CTi got base model suspension, so the lower suspension arm is a much simpler component than that fitted to the GTi. That said, the ball joint itself is the same.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

Check your stub axle "ears" if they don't have a crack in the radius where the machined surface where the pinch bolt and nut (both sides!) mates to the stub axle. Also check if the hole hasn't ovalled. 

 

Do they use a play checking machine in France or do the CT mechanics it manually with a tire iron?

[Anthony 1,003]

4 hours ago, lagonda said:

I replaced both NS and OS back in 2014 with Motaquip parts, and I'm a bit surprised one has worn out already.

 

I'm not sure when/if the base model TCA's changed, but I know for GTi wishbones Motaquip went from supplying good quality wishbones to garbage with Ocap branded balljoints about a decade or so ago.

 

If my experience is anything to go by, you'd be lucky to get 7-8 months out of the balljoint, let alone 7-8 years....

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

3 hours ago, Anthony said:

 

I'm not sure when/if the base model TCA's changed, but I know for GTi wishbones Motaquip went from supplying good quality wishbones to garbage with Ocap branded balljoints about a decade or so ago.

 

If my experience is anything to go by, you'd be lucky to get 7-8 months out of the balljoint, let alone 7-8 years....

I agree, annoying too as they still had the original spec Klieber bushes at the inner ends!!

 

We fitted one to kezzers 205GTI & it was worn out within the year for it's next MOT. 

 

g

[lagonda 42]

Thanks both for replies. Annoyingly I was too keen and replaced both sides with new Motaquip ones, even though the OS one was OK ... fortunately I've kept it!

 

So it sounds like this one probably really is worn. Sorry, I don't know how they test for play. In the UK you could watch your MoT being done, but I get the impression that elf n safety preclude that here in France!

 

Soo, would stil like to know how forum members test this joint for play. Yes, I'll check for cracks!

[DamirGTI 342]

(Lift off the ground) :

Grab the wheel at 12h and 6h and wiggle with you're hands , should feel the play or have someone wiggle it for you while you're down watching the hub/balljoint connecting point .

Or if by yourself , turn the wheel all the way out so you can see the balljoint and wiggle the wheel in the same time , as above .

 

Other than that , lift that suspect wheel off the ground and secure on jack stand , use an pry bar and go under the car and wedge it between the hub and suspension arm (or wishbone depending what you have ?!) , and apply some force down/sideways on the arm/wishbone and watch at the balljoint-hub joint .. you'll see it "free play" if is worn or if the hub is ovaled . 

 

D

Edited January 21, 2022 by DamirGTI

[SRDT 180]

You can watch from afar in France, at least if the guy is friendly. Not everyone likes having the customer behind it's back while working.

Going under the car to take a look is prohibited mostly for security/insurance reasons but some will let you take a look anyway.

[DamirGTI 342]

2 minutes ago, SRDT said:

Not everyone likes having the customer behind it's back while working.

 

Absolutely !! i'm "allergic" being watched while working ...

 

D

[lagonda 42]

Thanks Damir, .... just need it to get a little warmer before I investigate! Seems I might be able to buy a Lemforder replacement if necessary, which hopefully will last longer. In fact I'll probably buy a pair, as it seems I can expect the OS one to fail next CT!

 

Yes indeed, that's why I don't like to be pushy in such circumstances; also, there's the risk of annoying and getting failed.

 

Talking of which, have you noticed one's car never fails on just one item? I'm convinced this is because, if they did fail on one issue, the customer is likely to argue the point. If they fail on more than one item, it's much harder to argue.

 

So ... this time, the second failure point was my dipped beam settings. The form helpfully details the misalignment, as a percentage. Having kept all the old forms, the settings have changed markedly over the years .... yet I have never touched the adjustment since fitting LHD headlights in 2010! Hmmm. Do they change continuously all by themselves, or could it be their alignment gauges aren't particularly accurate/different users read the gauges differently?!

[DamirGTI 342]

Lemforder is really good yes , but others aren't bad either like : TRW , Delphi , Sasic , even the cheap Turkish Teknorot is pretty good for the price you pay .

 

I've an pair of Delphi wishbones on my daily 205 , can't remember for how long but it's certainly been a while since i bought them +10 years for sure still no problem with the balljoints ..

 

Also , we have here an old guy who refurbishes the balljoints on suspension parts (arms/wishbones mainly) .. makes really good job , better/stronger and more durable than factory made item .

 

Since you're based in France , have a look for Sasic arms/wishbones .. often you'll find OE parts in Sasic package ... at least the last pair of wishbones which i've bought from Sasic where like the OE item with Kleber bushes .

If you drive a lot , go for Lemforder or TRW ... if not pick something like : Sasic , Delphi , Teknorot .

 

Well , any play or worn parts in the steering , suspension , braking system is worth failing MOT no question about it and no arguing either those need to be fixed and in good working order .

Lighting MOT measuring equipment tends to be vary in accuracy from one to another MOT station ... depends .

 

Possibly you're MOT tester passed a few cars for some "colored papers" thus he needed to fail a few afterwards !!

I knew a man who worked around 30 years at the MOT stations , there's all sorts of tricks to make one pass and fail of course ... like emission testing equipment , pressing one button at right time during the testing procedure (or arranging the measuring probe at certain position in the exhaust) will make it pass results , which if done regularly would be instant fail .

 

But overall , MOT's are getting more strict every few years things changing .. at least over here , as our MOT stations mainly take and follow Germain regulations as an reference .

 

D

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by DamirGTI

[SRDT 180]

I have opened factory unbranded 309 arms to find TRW markings inside, I also had 309 PTS wishbones with TRW markings outside.

Is the quality still the same today? that I don't know.

[DamirGTI 342]

True ! nowadays you can't know who deals with who as far as aftermarket parts goes ... one brand name on the box yet different brand part inside the box !

 

TRW wishbones i got on a two occasions when buying directly at Peugeot here locally and at Peugeot in Italy .

Quality wise now and then , that's good question .. but me thinks long lasting known good aftermarket brands wont go to the route of decreased quality parts , possibly though few slightly different quality grades of the same part .

 

D

[lagonda 42]

I'll probably go for the Lemforder ones, at least once I.ve checked the play is in the ball joint ...  and from comment here re Motaquip, it probably is.

 

Yes, agree nice to have such items in top condition.

 

Regarding the headlamp settings, it's only now it's failed that I've realised that they (in France) are testing the dipped beam setting .... whereas I thought the UK MoT tested main beam. I set these for main beam when fitting LHD headlights, so now I'm going to have to play around setting for correct dipped beam. Found some instruction on line, will be interesting to see if the variance I find comes close to the test results.

[Anthony 1,003]

1 hour ago, lagonda said:

Regarding the headlamp settings, it's only now it's failed that I've realised that they (in France) are testing the dipped beam setting .... whereas I thought the UK MoT tested main beam.

 

Headlight alignment is tested using dipped beam on the UK MOT as well.

[lagonda 42]

So now I know! I've always set on main beam, but I guess thinking about it, dipped is the important one to get right.

Edited January 23, 2022 by lagonda

[lagonda 42]

At last got round to checking for free play in this joint, following advice kindly provided.

 

Result? I can't detect any free play in the ball joint. What I do find is that the entire strut moves up and down, which I suspect is what the tester observed but uselessly misdiagnosed. This is supported by the fact that whilst there is some movement similarly, checking the OS one, it is nowhere near so pronounced.

 

In this picture, I'm seeing cup 6 moving up and down as I lift and release the (jacked up) wheel. Does this mean I need to replace item B and/or D? Anything else?

 

The car has now covered 231,000 miles, and the struts and springs are undoubtedly the originals. The car handles fine, but would I be best renewing the lot given the work involved?

[welshpug 1,657]

for the up and down play there is always some but if its excessive then its likely the top rubber donut is deformed, no need to replace anything else if its all in decent nick though probably worth bunging in a new bearing whilst its apart, I think the sasic branded kit even comes with both as a set.

 

as for it all being original with 231k miles on it and "being fine"    i highly doubt that, try a car with fresh dampers and you'd be hugely surprised!!

 

 

with the base model suspension having a TCA using the arb for fore and aft location it can be harder to find the play, jack up and support the car on the subframe so both sides are off the ground to take any tension out of the equation,  grab the bottom of the wheel and pull in/out whilst feeling for play between the pin/hub and the arm, you can also place a lever over the arm and under the track rod and push down.

[lagonda 42]

Many thanks. I'll probably do some bodge to get it through its CT, then investigate properly. One of the few tools I don't have is coil spring compressors. Did buy a set back in the 70s to do some work on my brother's Capri. Whatever we did, the clamps moved towards each other as we tightened, to the extent that we gave up as it was too dangerous to carry on. I don't normally throw anything away, but the experience was that bad, these were chucked. So not only do I need to buy a new set of spring compressrs, I have to be sure they're not the same garbage! Point taken re the dampers, good opportunity to replace them.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

I have a couple of pairs the same as these. They are perfectly adequate for a 205 front spring.

[lagonda 42]

Err, yes ... those look a lot more adequate than those 1970's ones. Thanks for the heads up.

[lagonda 42]

Mei ... My temporary bodge for the strut up/down play has been successful. So I thought I'd try your test of the lower suspension arm ball joint, by placing a trolley jack under the subframe. Expected all to be fine. No up and down play... great! Then try rocking the wheel side to side, grasping at 3 and 9 o'clock. Hmm, play. In the bl**dy ball joint. Grrr. Check more, and the pin is rocking in the hub carrier pinch.

 

Disconnect ball joint. Motaquip verdict confirmed, the ball is a pretty loose fit, in fact less stiff than that of the one it replaced in 2014 (I don't throw anything away!). Found the hub carrier pinch where the bolt passes through was pretty clagged up so cleaned that out with a hacksaw blade. Checked the OD of the pin with a micrometer against others, and it isn't worn to any great degree. Refitted, having turned the ball through 90 degrees, defintely stiffer to move. Big improvement, but still some slight play. The pin is still moving in the pinch, so there's a fair bet the pinch hole in the hub carrier has worn.

 

Any remedies for that? I can try filing the inner faces of the pinch ears as the gap is only just wide enough for a hacksaw blade even with no bolt in place. But what if that doesn't improve the fit, or proves only temporary? Meanwhile I've ordered a pair of Lemforder arms ... be nice if the have slightly oversize ball pins!

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Another hub carrier is the only real fix. The clamp has either stretched because the pinch bolt has been overtightened, or the pinch bolt has been loose so the joint has moved about and ovalled the pinch.

[DamirGTI 342]

Agree with Tom , best to find good second hand hub as there's still good ones around .

 

If really stuck or optionally , machinist can fix the ovalled hub by machining it and making and pressing in the insert ..

What ever you do not file nor cut/open up the pinch ends ! as it'll be dangerous once you join the ball joint with the hub and tighten up the pinch bolt the pinch ears could and potentially will break . 

 

D

[SRDT 180]

The hub carrier in itself is standard, you just need to keep your "1.6" hubs.