E10 fuel

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

What is the general idea of what the future holds for our little 205's? Obviously E5 will be sold as super unleaded for 5 years but does anyone know what we will do once this is removed from the forecourts? I know there are additives available but some say they are a waste of time. Not sure what will happen over the next few years. 

[petert 586]

We've had E10 in Australia since around 2010. Ours is made by blending 91RON unleaded to end up with a 94RON fuel. For most low spec cars, this works fine. However, the ethanol does attract moisture and tends to rust the internals of steel fuel rails and cheap fuel filters, especially if left sitting around for long periods.

Edited September 7, 2021 by petert

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

Thankyou for that, so in short if I either monitor the steel lines under the car and replace the filter every couple of years it will be fine. Things like injectors and stuff are fine with the E10? Unfortunately mine does sit around for the winter period each year, that is the plus side of living in the UK compared to Australia. With the 205 I guess the plus side is that have a plastic tank and some hard plastic fuel lines so these should be OK. 

[petert 586]

Fuel rail? Why not just use E5 and minimise the risk?

[DanteICE 72]

UK is moving to E10 in the future, I presume he's a good boy scout and he's getting ready.

[welshpug 1,657]

2 hours ago, DanteICE said:

UK is moving to E10 in the future, I presume he's a good boy scout and he's getting ready.

its already here from 1st of September.

 

as for using E5, its more expensive, a lot more.

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

5 hours ago, petert said:

Fuel rail? Why not just use E5 and minimise the risk?

E10 is now the standard at our pumps and E5 is replacing super unleaded, and in 5 years it is going to disappear altogether only leaving E10, I will run mine on super unleaded for as long as I can but I was just wondering what the future holds, will there be a way around it so I can run my 205 safely on E10 or will I end up with a very large door stop. 

[I'm-no-mechanic 3 3 Cars]

55 minutes ago, pugdamo said:

E10 is now the standard at our pumps and E5 is replacing super unleaded, and in 5 years it is going to disappear altogether only leaving E10, I will run mine on super unleaded for as long as I can but I was just wondering what the future holds, will there be a way around it so I can run my 205 safely on E10 or will I end up with a very large door stop. 

This is exactly how I see it and would love for someone to be able to enlighten me differently. I have a couple of 205s and have always found them economical cars to run as well as loving them, I figure that I just have to lump it that the fuel is now going to be more expensive but have no idea about the longer term, although there are thousands of classic cars out there more valuable than mine so you'd have thought there must be an answer. It seems daft that good cars that will run for decades and decades could become obsolete for cars that have far shorter life expectancy and therefore increase the impacts of manufacturing these vehicles, but that generates taxes.

[welshpug 1,657]

1 hour ago, pugdamo said:

E10 is now the standard at our pumps and E5 is replacing super unleaded

 

 

no, SUL has been E5 same as normal 95 for a long time, its not changing.

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

1 hour ago, welshpug said:

 

 

no, SUL has been E5 same as normal 95 for a long time, its not changing.

Super was 99 octane (or at least in my area it was in Shell garages anyway) , but as of the 1st of September it was changing to 95 E5 and regular unleaded was E10 or at least that's what I read in an article on the fuel change. 

[petert 586]

What about E85? Any plans for that? It’s about 110RON and costs approx. $1.60/L here. Great if you have fuel system parts which are 100% compatible.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

In the Netherlands we have E10 for a few years now and to be honest it sucks. For the 205 I reverted buying my fuel in Germany because I am lucky enough to live near the border (Aral Ultimate 102). E10 eats fuel hoses, it was bad enough with E5 but with E10 I can almost see them deteriorate on the spot.

 

For my wifes ex-daily fuel consumption went from 1l on 13km to 1l on 10,5 to 11ish and it ran rough. Car was deemed fit for E10 (Vauxhall Astra 1.6 8v). The "new" daily (Volvo V50 2.4) seems to manage 1l on 11km on E10 and runs ok.

 

What annoys me the most is the unavailability of ethanol resistant fuel hoses at all the part shops. I just can't seem to get hold of the right type of fuel hose, or I need to buy the whole spool.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Thijs_Rallye

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

19 hours ago, pugdamo said:

E10 is now the standard at our pumps and E5 is replacing super unleaded, and in 5 years it is going to disappear altogether only leaving E10, I will run mine on super unleaded for as long as I can but I was just wondering what the future holds, will there be a way around it so I can run my 205 safely on E10 or will I end up with a very large door stop.

when I was asking the French guy on the French forum about this happening he said they have already E15 over there - 15% E for ages already and he uses his 205 gti with it fine, so we should be ok with E10 but need a quick visit to wikipedia I think LoL  I have no idea how ethanol is different to petrol chemically - but the above comments are really useful to know about the corrosion problems 

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

20 hours ago, petert said:

What about E85? Any plans for that? It’s about 110RON and costs approx. $1.60/L here. Great if you have fuel system parts which are 100% compatible.

Never seen E85, I assume although it's 110RON it would absorb moisture even faster than E10 so possibly only suitable for race cars or something that wouldn't be sat around with fuel left in the tank? 

[petert 586]

We have both E85 at the pump and E85 race fuel. Yes, it attracts moisture more readily and you need to have a fully compliant fuel system. Pump E85 varies in ethanol content (something like 70-85%, thus you need a flex sensor)  but race E85 is guaranteed consistency.

[SRDT 175]

11 hours ago, Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi said:

when I was asking the French guy on the French forum about this happening he said they have already E15 over there - 15% E for ages already and he uses his 205 gti with it fine, so we should be ok with E10 but need a quick visit to wikipedia I think LoL  I have no idea how ethanol is different to petrol chemically - but the above comments are really useful to know about the corrosion problems 

There is no E15 on the pump in France, we have (in order of price):

E5 with minimal octane rating (RON) of 98

E5 with minimal octane rating (RON) of 95

E10 with minimal octane rating (RON) of 95

E85

 

E10 can have an octane rating higher than 95 if it is made by adding even more ethanol to E5 95 octane fuel but you won't know that before you try it.

 

E85 is cheap (aroud half the price of E5) but you run too lean with it so even if you change your hoses you also need a way to inject more fuel and to do so depending of the actual ethanol content.

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

8 hours ago, SRDT said:

There is no E15 on the pump in France, we have (in order of price):

E5 with minimal octane rating (RON) of 98

E5 with minimal octane rating (RON) of 95

E10 with minimal octane rating (RON) of 95

E85

 

E10 can have an octane rating higher than 95 if it is made by adding even more ethanol to E5 95 octane fuel but you won't know that before you try it.

 

E85 is cheap (aroud half the price of E5) but you run too lean with it so even if you change your hoses you also need a way to inject more fuel and to do so depending of the actual ethanol content.

Do you know if France have any plans to drop E5 like the UK? I'm not bothered about the performance and to a certain extent I'm not bothered about the price, because mine isn't a daily driver or anything, I just want to be able to put a fuel in it that's going to run right and not cause any future issues like mechanical breakdowns or a fire due to a fuel hose or filter leaking. If I can make mine right on E10 I'll be happy, if E5 stays at the pump then I'll be even more happy. 

[DamirGTI 342]

There's so much better alternatives to ethanol , like - Butanol ... but ethanol is clearly preferred cos of low cost for refineries , and the fact that we'll need more frequent refilling the higher the % of ethanol in petrol (gov./tax man liking the fact) .. it's crap really "water down" , old fashion aromatics made much better fuel blends .

 

D

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by DamirGTI

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

47 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

There's so much better alternatives to ethanol , like - Butanol 

E10 is being pushed because politicians think this reduces CO2 and saves the climate (lol). Increased consumption is a bonus to them.

[DamirGTI 342]

Yeah , all that CO2 "environment madness" is simply load of bollocks ! basically excuse for pushing tax on CO2 where ever possible .

 

 

D

[welshpug 1,657]

ita not bollocks, something needs to be done, its probably rather late already though.

[SRDT 175]

On 9/9/2021 at 8:48 AM, pugdamo said:

Do you know if France have any plans to drop E5 like the UK?

It doesn't look like it, for now at least.

 

As for using E10 I think original fuel hoses are now pretty old anyway so it's not a bad idea to simply go with new hoses, rated for E85 if possible. As for other injection components a few might not like double the ethanol content but on the other hand you can find E10 compatible cars since the 70' so injectors, fuel pumps and the like should be fine.

Another concern is that with E10 you run a bit leaner than with E5, that is if your car has no lambda control.

Also in France E10 has 95 octane rating so XU5J and most XU5JA need -2/-3° on timing advance but XU9JA and XU9J4 with 35 pin ECU simply can't use it. You need to add octane booster to reach 97 octane rating.

[Spesh 31 1 Cars]

also remember that E10 isn't 10% as a definitive standard, its "up to 10%".  Same applies to E5.  Esso 99 (and subsequently the Tesco forcourts they supply, which isn't all of them) is actually Ethanol free even though its badged as E5.  I'm also convinced that the plans to drop Super as E5 won't be binding either, it will still be available if fuel suppliers can meet their obligations for % of renewables supplied vs hydrocarbons - at what price who knows however.

 

Theres a big shakeup coming with Gasoil/Red diesel next year that has driven a new product to replace it called HVO which is actually pretty awesome as a Derv drop in replacement, bit dearer at the minute but that will change.

[petert 586]

We're very fortunate that 98RON is still ethanol free and we have the option of E85. I guess when you grow as much sugar cane as we do, it's a logical choice.

[DSYKES5500 22]

Stew at BakerBM sells the rubber fuel hoses that are E10 compatible.  https://www.bakerbm.com/205-gti-rubber-fuel-lines.html