brakes 309 - angle of brake limiter in rear line

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

Ok before you say it, I know this is the 205 gti drivers forum but can someone - maybe one of the 309 guys? -

help me - advise me the 2 following points about the REAR brake line/set up on a 1.6 SRi 309 1987 

 

1. what angle the brake line limiter in the 309 should be? ref pic #1 

 

I believe it is similar set up to the 205 1.6 GTi with drum brakes rear.  I also have drum brakes rear. I also have the rear brakes served from one rear port of the 19mm bendix MC 

 

I got good advice from people incl. Welshpug before about the 1.6 limiter. 

 

mine is slightly different to the 1.6 205 but in a similar position in the engine bay 

 

I attach photo  of where the rear brake line turns up into the engine bay. it look like the fixing clip would take 

the line up at about 35 degree from horizontal? 

 

I should I have taken a photo before I took the old one off but it was ages ago and done not well planned out due to engine failure. 

 

I have got both an original and brand new limiter, one** which will fix into this line next.  I did not change the original line that goes up into the engine bay so that cant be wrong thank god and also that means that limiter can only go one way around 

so that is great also I cant cock that up

 

2. anyone know how long is the brake pipe that originally went from the master cylinder to the input of the limiter is?

 

The old one snapped and a piece is now missing. 

 

I think it followed along the top of the bulk head - as per photo two ? it kinda bends around many times

there's a space in the fixing block for it. Its just how to bend it around and what angle the limiter is at 

that will make the final length I guess. yeah parallel to the front right brake viewed from front.

 

I ll check the part cat. asap also 

 

any help be great  

[309SRiguy 15]

Hi Richard,

The limiter valve on my 309 SRi is fastened to the body seam by a clip at the outlet union. The seam runs from the battery area down to the bottom of the firewall.  The valve body sits nearly vertical but the top is slightly off to the left side of the car ( top slightly to the right when looking at it from the front). The top is also also tilted slightly backwards.

When looking at the image the valve looks much as it does to the naked eye. The ignition coil angle is distorted by the close-up lens.

 

I was under the impression that the limiter was laid at an angle and a ball moved up the ramp to shut the valve when braking forces acted on it. Now that I see its position I wonder if it works by hydraulic pressure. I cannot see how the ball would roll forward under braking with it mounted as mine is.

The limiter appears to be in an original position when I look at the piping.

I drive on a lot of gravel road and can lock up the front before the rear so I assume it is working although it has not been braked to that point on gravel since I reconditioned the rear drum brakes. Heavy braking on tarmac pulls the rear down nicely so they are working well with no lockup on a clean even surface.

Can wiser heads clarify the issue with the angle of the limiter?

 

I took a tape measure to let you know the pipe length from master cylinder to the limiter valve but that proved to be a lot harder than I hoped. To get an accurate length will require a more dedicated mission. I will do what I can as soon as I can get some time organised.

 

Link to 309 regulator numbers here:

 

http://www.catcar.info/peugeot/?lang=en                    Go to 309   -  without parameters   - mechanical    -   braking   -  compensator   -   compensator       

 

I think    OEM  4861 42  is the one you are looking for, but you might want to verify your series.

 

Bryan

 

 

 

The limiter is behind the black bound wiring in the brightly lit zone if you are having trouble spotting it. There is not much space for a camera but the header tank, coil, and distributor cap locations should guide you to the body seam that the limiter is attached to. There might be a flat on the seam that the clip fits over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

brilliant thanks :))))))))

[SRDT 180]

The 1.6 GTI limiter is bigger than the others.

I don't think the 309 had one of those ; just limiters that react to the pressure except for cars with ABR (ABS) and the GTI16.

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

@SRDT thanks alot     @309SRiguy thanks again also 

 

Im coming back to this thread again maybe tonight, tomorrow and more. Just wanted say thanks immediately 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 that information is priceless well to me anyway because I also was told**that it/mine works on inertia in my 309 but it would appear not now for sure.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                because your @309sriguy one is vertical. penny drops to me at last  - that means inertia gravity would not work on it while decelerating with a vertical outlet gravity not going to do anything to close the outlet anyway  - it cant be an inertia design                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              **told by a french guy so thought it could not be wrong well as peugeot French etc LoL LoL LoL 

 my mistake!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                thanks guys 

 

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

15 hours ago, 309SRiguy said:

Link to 309 regulator numbers here:

 

http://www.catcar.info/peugeot/?lang=en                    Go to 309   -  without parameters   - mechanical    -   braking   -  compensator   -   compensator       

 

I think    OEM  4861 42  is the one you are looking for, but you might want to verify your series.

 

Bryan

Thanks again Bryan. 

 

1. I attach photo - photo 1 of my original one on the left and the new one I got and the new box it was in on the right. I thought my original one might be faulty so I got a new one just in case I could only source it from Spain

 

The bosch number I have bought as you can see in the photo is :- BOSCH 0 204 131 045 

 

ok so what I need to do is now check that against the part number you have and check again using the parts cat. link as per welshpug bottom of every post. 

 

just thinking obviously I cant test either of them under numerous conditions of deceleration braking out the car-but I think I can test the pressures going in and then out of both using my brake pressures high pressure gauges

again if yours is vertical gravity inertia cannot effect a vertical out port under deceleration with gravity vertical too.

 

once I get this confirmed then I can put it back in the line at the right angle - copy your own - 

bleed the rear brakes and then do a test run maybe. 

 

I can test the pressures again in each rear cylinder using the high pressure gauges. 

 

no rolling road - cant get the car to a rolling road easily at present but can make enquiries - about that 

no MOT present so cant eve test on the road - obviously I wouldnt put other people at risk by driving a car 

without brakes on a public road I know that. but if I get good pressures clearly the brakes will work well -

then its just setting the shoes up ok and the adjuster and springs of course 

 

I just did a (poor) sketch of the dimensions - just for the record also photo 2 

 

yeah looking at this again now it is not like the 205 gti 1.6 l one - the one welshpug sent me an ebay link to 

so it very probably looking like this one is NOT an inertia one it doesnt like big as the 2051.6one at all 

 

weird that I think I have seen ones like this on the 1.9 now but I wont go into that on this thread its getting too long

 

2. for the length of the brake pipe I tried the parts cat but nothing there 

I thought I could use the 1.6 205 parts cat. I found the length for that one but now its surely not the same 

that wont be exactly correct for the 309

the 205 one is 800mm long. 

 

Ill try and install and bleed and measure the pressure values - that should guarantee me 

i)they are working ok   

ii) what the pressures are so I get an idea of how its working - I already measured the pressures on the front 

at various pedal positions so I can even say graph the difference to show it working -

ie the bias will be illustrated so I know whats going on - 

 

thanks for that description of the action of rear and front brakes - yeah its invaluable to me  

 

I guess I might as well test and check the old one just in case in works I guess at this point nothing to lose

if theres any doubt about it Ill bin it for safety reasons. Ill test the new one easily

 

it doesnt take long to set up the gauges - just a bleed nipple and an adapter valve so i could probably get this done tomorrow afternoon 

 

will post again asap  roll on the sunny days :)))) 

 

thanks  

 

 

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

 

On 9/6/2021 at 4:44 AM, 309SRiguy said:

The limiter is behind the black bound wiring in the brightly lit zone if you are having trouble spotting it. There is not much space for a camera but the header tank, coil, and distributor cap locations should guide you to the body seam that the limiter is attached to. There might be a flat on the seam that the clip fits over.

2. ok so I have set up that section of brake line - I have had a crack - to copy yours @309SRiguy           

I ended up cutting and flaring a length of 1050mm - this actually gives me a bit of "wiggle room" to change the angle of the limiter a bit - the copper is really great compared to the steel original. 

 

@309SRiguy thanks about measuring your one I can alter this one if I am badly wrong for sure. 

Im still testing the output so I havent hooked up the rear line and brakes yer

 

I attach photos - I think its looking fair -having tech issues will do another post with other three  photos 1 for starters I will also take another one from under neath so it shows the angle better 

 

I have done some testing also new one I got and old one - will do another post for more help        (sorry I cant get his pic horizontal Ill try again underneath)

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi
technical problem with photo upload orientation

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

ok so I have done the testing of both limiters and took the trouble to test the output port of the rear master cylinder port. there is one port to drive both rear brakes on this model. 

 

the MC is great over 100BAR pressure with the engine running. nothing wrong with the MC  

 

I don't get necessarily expected values outlet from the limiter. 

 

@welshpug I get way more than 2.5 Mpa on the gauge - so that's more than 25 BAR - from the output of both limiters I have. have I got suspect limiters ? maybe the wrong limiter for the new one? I ll check part numbers. 

you know when you said knee point - so is that where the limiter starts to reduce the pressure.

If i did a graph of the pressures front and rear should that be less than equal above 25 BAR? 

I think I get it - I think I found some more info for the French Tech manuals. Ill post later 

 

I positioned them as shown by @309SRiguy  not sure - yeah almost vertical. 

 

Ill just go ahead and leave the new one in there and hook up the rear brakes I guess. 

 

I just need to pass the MOT in the first instance. So if the rear brakes are strong enough that should be enough to pass the test (?)  I can just test using a hand torque test using the stud in the drear drum - resistance to turning with the brakes on as per the front ones I have done. no rolling road. cant get car to mot station at present. 

 

I have replaced the hand brake cables. there appears nothing wrong with the drums or the shoes. the hand brake is ROCK solid now   it also free rotates once off. the old cable casing broke. it would stick on when the handbrake was off.  I think it is exactly the same as the 1.6 handbrake the cables are the same part numbers. 

 

any further advice be great. 

 

would love to be able to drive on the road again after all the work and time and effort thats gone into this - rebuilding the engine was a big one for a DIY guy w/o prior experience of that.