205GTI rally car barn find

[28hodge 22]

So, I have a thread running here for a my 1985 rally car that I bought about 2.5 years ago, I went looking for a 1985 or early so that we could use it for historic stuff in Cat4.

 

 

So that car showed up in Glasgow, a 5hr round trip, not a nightmare. It had suffered a roll but was in decent shape and a solid enough base but would need work, including a fresh roof panel. The work stalled on it a little due to work and bits but I kept looking for a 3 door non sunroof or donor car and until I had that I just slowly did bits and sourced parts.

 

So whilst on my hunt for a roof I got told about a guy that had a couple 205’s in his agricultural buildings (I was at a kids bday party and my mate mentioned it) anyway 2 weeks ago I wondered down to the yard which is about 2 miles from my house and had an ask.

 

Turns out he had 3 205’s a couple stdt’s and then a B reg 1.6gti rally car that had done the 1994 RAC rally. The guy had bought it and used it once on a night rally, had a small of and a small half roll then parked it and left it for 25 years in his barn, until about 12months ago when he had to move it outside sheeted over but with no windscreen in it?

 

Randomly when I did a little digging I found out it was owned and did the RAC rally in 1994 by a guy I’ve known for years and was actually my boss about 12 years ago, so having rung him I found out it was built from a mint which turns out to have been a GL shell with all new PTS group N bits. It was built purely for the RAC and that was its first event as a new build car and finished 3^rd in N2. He then did the Pirelli in it and had a small off in Pundershaw where he rolled it gently over some brash it landed on its wheels but they couldn’t get it out, so they retired but where pulled out and drove out the stage.

 

He then sold it and from what I can tell it was repaired and used for a couple night rallies, suffered a slight roll again (running theme here with me buying previously rolled 205 rally cars!!) then put in a clean dry workshop and left………for about 20 years!

 

The shell, despite spending the last 12-18moths outside sheeted over, minus its windscreen is so solid, there is so little rust anywhere, I had thought it was a GTI on the logbook but its not, but to be honest I bet lots of rally cars aren’t or have been re-shelled into base model cars but with the identity swapped etc. My other car in the other thread is a GTI on the logbook, but in truth is in way worse condition than this.

 

I couldn't not buy this, it looks ropey but the main shell has basically no rust, its seam welded and has all the PTS stuff thats hard to get now. The cage needs to come out and have a quick sand down and be repainted and the interior needs to come out be cleaned and refit plus a cambelt kit and then see what we have.

 

[28hodge 22]

I've had a couple weeks off from the cars as we had a baby on the 17th so I've done small bits here and there mainly on the B reg car as it is at home in the garage whereas the C reg is away from home at my dads in the workshop.

 

Ive taken all the interior out and washed and cleaned it, more than once, to try and get the 20 odd years of muck and grime its accumulated off it (the ebayist will say I have washed the barn find dust off it and lessened its value!).

 

 

 

 

the cage is fine but has a lot of surface rust on it, so looks pretty tatty, I was a bit reticent to remove it as it looks to have been really well installed so is a really tight fit to the A pillars/roof etc, but there was no way i could repaint it in situ so it was going to have to come out.

 

 

and after quite a few four letter words - 

 

 

I've gone over it all with a polystrip disc which brought it up like new, then a quick rattle can paint job - 

 

 

Looks like new again, although refitting it means I'll need to give it a little touch up, but its never going to be, nor do I want it to be, a show car so if it looks ok from 10 yards then that'll do for me. 

 

The shell is so free from rust and corrosion though, the only area that needs some attention is one small spot on the floor, but as it did a couple gravel rallies this will be from being smacked by a rock etc, Plan is to get the car up in the air, hit it with a wire wheel and remove all the loose underseal and then treat it with some BiltHamber and then gravitax it.

 

Small hole that ive cut out and welded a patch back in.

 

I also ordered a drivers side headlamp panel as the one on it had been bent around a little so old one removed

 

and new one welded in.

 

Aim this week is to swap the wishbones out for the rose jointed ones i have and get the struts out and away to bilstein for a rebuild. whilst i have them out the way I'll strip the cambelt down see which one I need the 113 or 114 teeth belt and change the water pump belt and tensioner, I've turned it over by hand but there is no way I am attempting anything more without changing the belt.

[28hodge 22]

Hmm, on with doing the Cam belt, all stripped down and as suspected it’s the spring tensioner so 113 tooth belt. Got one picked up today from the local motor factors but before I went to collect it I thought I would have a look and see which engine was in it the b6d or b6e.

It turns out it’s the D6B which is a 1.9 engine, well a 1.9 block at least, I have crudely measured the stroke with a piece of wire and marked it at TDC and bottom of stroke, but I’m not getting clear answer to be honest getting measurement from 78 to 85mm. I am right in thinking  1.6 is 73mm and 1.9 is 88mm?

Checked the AFM and ECU part numbers and the AFM ends 109 and ECU ends 359 so both 1.9 parts. However I have black injectors which don’t seem right, blue for 1.6 and yellow for 1.9 is what I thought? I also don’t have a sump spacer the sump connect direct to the block. I hope they left the 1.6 gearbox on it.

If I take the sump off can i/will I be able to see the crank and its part no to identify it as a 1.9 or 1.6 crank (I assume the crank and rods are different to create the additional stoke?)

The car was built up for the 1994 RAC (ie it wasn’t a gti that was taken in bits and modified for rallying, it was a collection of parts built into a car if that makes sense) so I could well believe that they had a good 1.9 block that they built up with 1.6 internals, but also knowing the guy it was built for I could also well believe it was built as a 1.9 and entered into the 1600 class! He has done worse than this as I suspect many others have.

Fun and games tonight though as ill change the belt and tensioner, belt seems straight forward enough but the tensioner looks a pig to get into to swap and compress the spring in a small space.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

29 minutes ago, 28hodge said:

black injectors

Those are 1.9 DFZ (105 hp) ones and flow more than the yellow ones. It can well be that it is a 105 1.9 DFZ engine, those came without spacer.

[28hodge 22]

5 minutes ago, Thijs_Rallye said:

Those are 1.9 DFZ (105 hp) ones and flow more than the yellow ones. It can well be that it is a 105 1.9 DFZ engine, those came without spacer.

errrgh, the least powerful 1.9 engine, if you were going to cheat why use that engine! its the one from the cti i think? is that right?

 

I do hope its only got the black injectors and nothing else from that engine!

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

CTi or 1.9 Rallye. Is the engine code tag gone? (which sits near the top of the alternator bracket)

[28hodge 22]

28 minutes ago, Thijs_Rallye said:

CTi or 1.9 Rallye. Is the engine code tag gone? (which sits near the top of the alternator bracket)

Yeah it’s gone, just D6B tag riveted to the block behind the alternator. I’ll probably rebuild it to a 115bhp 1.6 spec. I’ll have a look to check as the engine will have been made up from parts I would of thought rather than being a complete engine just bolted in.

[DamirGTI 342]

That riveted tag is in fact the engine code , if it says D6B on the tag means it's 1.9 128bhp (if it hasn't been messed with , which seems like yours is) .

 

If the engine or block internals turn out to be 1.9 DFZ bits and pieces (pistons with condors as an assembly specifically) , can make interesting engine with that if you combine 1.9 DFZ bottom end with the 1.9 D6B head or later 1.6 B6D head (was popular "rally mod" at the time ..)

 

1.9 DFZ low compression engine really isn't that bad , surely on paper the specs seem kinda crap , but in real life/driving experience you'd be surprised if tried driving one .

Also very good for budget turbocharging , if you happened to have complete engine bock and head .

 

D

 

 

[28hodge 22]

12 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

That riveted tag is in fact the engine code , if it says D6B on the tag means it's 1.9 128bhp (if it hasn't been messed with , which seems like yours is) .

 

If the engine or block internals turn out to be 1.9 DFZ bits and pieces (pistons with condors as an assembly specifically) , can make interesting engine with that if you combine 1.9 DFZ bottom end with the 1.9 D6B head or later 1.6 B6D head (was popular "rally mod" at the time ..)

 

1.9 DFZ low compression engine really isn't that bad , surely on paper the specs seem kinda crap , but in real life/driving experience you'd be surprised if tried driving one .

Also very good for budget turbocharging , if you happened to have complete engine bock and head .

 

D

 

 

I'm hoping its an engine that been built to a 115bhp 1.6gti spec and just used a D6B block as they had one that was in good condition. the car was built by a rally preparation workshop back in the 90's specifically for the 1994 rac. it wasnt a car that was modified it was built from a good clean shell up using new parts and parts they had as they did a lot of peugeot 205 builds.

[28hodge 22]

from this

 

To this 

 

a polystrip disc some bilthamber and then prime and satin black. Passenger side next!

[28hodge 22]

Slowly I am getting this progressed, I would like to try and have it out on either a local road rally at the end of Aug but if I can (and I don't think I can) I'd like to try and get it together for a rally test day on the 25th June. biggest issue with that is getting it blasted over in white in time.

 

So far I have done - 

 

Cambelt change

Sump off cleaned out and refit with new gaskets

Cage and interior out to clean up repaint and wash interior

Fitted seat mounts and re worked all the harness mounts as I didn't like them.

Removed the suspension which when looked at I thought was possible scrap, but having sent it to Skip Brown is now back and looks like new

Stripped the cracked filler from the sunroof plate and filled and sanded back

Refit 75% of the interior

Fitted the group A wishbones I had bought for my other 205

Removed and refit a fresh headlamp panel

 

 

 

Suspension before being refurbed

 

 

And after being put in the cleaner/hot bath a few times to get the collars and spring pans free enough to move stripped cleaned repainted new grpN rubbers and new SB gravel spings

 

 

 

I've still got a lot to do though. I need to fully torque up the crank pulley then refit the starter motor, fill it with all fluids and see if it will crank over and start then see what if any elec issues I have. Refit a windscreen (not my favourite job) re plumb all solid lines on the brakes (a job I for some reason really enjoy doing) change the gearbox oil, sort out the Nav side of the car and get the trip mounted and all the other things she needs over there, map light potti plug etc, wire the wipers and horn into the foot rest (switches are there but I can't locate the wiring for it so I am assuming its been removed at some point.

 

Oh and completely refit the entire front end, Wings, Bonnet (got a fibreglass one and a std) bumper, skirt etc.

 

Yeah I think June 25th for the test day is optimistic.

[28hodge 22]

Soooooo, been busy. I got the car built back up, and loosely put back together. I couldn’t get it to run due to a lack of fuel, so replaced the fuel pump, and still had zero fuel in the bores but had fuel at the rail. The injectors were sent out to be cleaned and when they returned after a bit of messing about it fired up and ran.

I’ve also played around with the wiring (there is a lot of additional wiring as it’s a ex stage car so has the master switch and spots on separate looms etc) and got to the stage where everything seems to be working other than the washer jets, which are still to sort.

I find I work best under a bit of pressure, so with the car looking like this on the 26^th sept ………

 

 

I decided I’d enter a half day half night Targa rally which is run by my local club on warcop ranges. I have done a few of their events and they do a historic road rally which has a reputation for being one of the best and also sodding hard, we have done that in the mini before and is half the reason I wanted something with a bit more travel and was a bit more modern. The mini took a beating on it and one of the targas that they ran late last year was also rough as.

 

Only problem, the rally is on the 23^rd Oct!

Regs also state that the car needs to be one color and not a patchwork – Erm, it looked like this remember on the 27^th September-

 

 

So a week of masking up the car and garage has us here…..

 

 

I’ve still got to prep and paint the doors and bonnet, then refit everything, sort a CV boot (might just put a stretchy boot on it for speed though it is the passenger side so I could just change it.

It needs to be MOT’d and ideally have a couple hundred miles put on it. I think I may not quite make it but ill see, hoping I can get the doors prepped today, then primed tomorrow and top coat done Thursday and build the car back up Sat Sun Mon.

[28hodge 22]

I have not had many early nights in the last 10days!!

 

Managed to get the doors wings and bonnet prepped, the wings and bonnet aren't great so only got a minor amount of prep and they want replacing with better items, I do have a fibreglass bonnet so maybe should have prepped that but it wants a skim of filler and then sanding back with a guide coat to get it perfect, and I don't have the time, so will do that at a later date as the actual priming and spraying only takes an hour for each operation.

 

 

 

The doors were in better shape, the passenger was a GTI door but in green the drivers door that came with the car was dinged so I prepped a grey door I had, its not a GTI door though so will need the drill the rivets etc.

 

I had them all finished off on Sat morn and left them to harden off a little on Sunday before I started building the doors back up and fitting them the rear bumper and the arch trims etc.

 

 

 

Standard door that needs the rivets.

 

MOT booked for Wednesday 20th next week if it passes that there is half a chance it'll make the Targa on the 23rd. Though how sensible taking it to a targa as its first activities after sitting in a worksshop for 25years is debatable as i would imagine it really wants 2000 miles of snagging.

 

Issues that still to sort - 

CV boot on passenger driveshaft, I have another shaft so can just swap it in I hope! if not stretchy boot time.

need drop links

brakes are working but feel s*itty, I have a whole other 205gti so I may be going to rob the calipers from that

electrical issues, I have a lad coming Fri to help with that who loves building looms etc (odd if you ask me as I hate electrics)

Get the windscreen washer working

Gravitax the underside 

refit the sump guard

 

I'll say its 50-50 as to whether we make the Targa.

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:11 AM, 28hodge said:

brakes are working but feel s*itty, I have a whole other 205gti so I may be going to rob the calipers from that

Just wanted to join in the thread really - I'm not a pro so this could be missing the mark but 

possibly the seals in the master cylinder have gone over time? do the brakes stay on with the pedal down?

just I had the same thing - really felt like the brakes weird - was the seals in the master cylinder rotten 

 

from looking through the site from other posts for the drop links lemforder good? 

 

brilliant work really good to see it all getting done  

 

 

[28hodge 22]

Cheers for the encouragement it's getting somewhere near, the thing that's making me hesitant to take it is the likelihood of some silly things breaking, like exhaust hangers/rubbers and stuff. A couple hundred miles snagging it would have been ideal. I am pretty confident that it'll be ready for an MOT, that said need to fit the screen with my brother and his mate tonight, so as long as we don't bust that we should have a complete car come Sunday.

 

The brakes I would think are the pistons being a bit sticky and seized in the front calipers, the master is a new (though only a cheap pattern part) and the rear slaves in the drums are new, I'll re bleed everything and flush the fluid again as the stuff that was in it was obviously pretty rank, so it could have a bit of that lingering around. Like I say if they don't come too I'll go and swap the calipers with the other car I have.

 

I'll ring the local motor factors today and get some drop links sorted, I think the drop links on the other car are also goosed otherwise for the MOT I'd just nick them.

[28hodge 22]

Update on this - 

 

so it kinda went west a little. I had my brother and his electrical mate set up for landing on Friday at 4ish to help out till it was essentially done. that went south when my other half started throwing up at 2pm Friday so I had to look after small people on Friday rather than sorting the car.

 

This wasn't ideal, but it got worse, I then started feeling rough on Saturday and although nowhere near as bad as my other half I watched BSB on the sofa for the day with my eldest who also felt ill. all fun!!

 

Saturday 8pm when everyone had gone to bed I felt 80%ish so went out and changed the NS driveshaft which had a split boot, and then fitted the windscreen. so it wasn't a total write off, but I was well behind as id wanted the car basically just needing snagging over the weekend.

 

So I cancelled the MOT that was booked for Wednesday and re booked it for Friday (Today) 

So the following 3 days have seen many 1am finishes but with the Targa on the Saturday and the MOT the day before I was kind of resigned to not making it as without being able to run the car at all prior even for 50miles its just asking for an issue and a frustrating and potentially dangerous day out.

 

So at the minute I am looking at taking my Classic mini instead which we use for historic road rallies, however its barely turned a wheel for the last 8months so I am a little hesitant, I also don't like using the mini on Targas as they tend to be a bit rougher. I'm 50-50 on doing it in the mini or marshalling instead. I went to the mini the other day and bleed the brakes and clutch and checked all the ball joints, I will have a look at lunch and do an oil change and put some fresh fuel in it and take it for a run and see.

 

Anyway, with the Peugeot I decided that as i wasnt going to do the Targa in it I would cancel the Friday MOT and take my time to get it sorted and rebook it in the next week or so, however it does, at least, for the first time in approx. 25 years look like a car again

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

[28hodge 22]

Soooooooooo,

 

I went to the Targa, but as a marshall rather than a competitor, which was a shame as it looked like a good targa with a lot of the tests being over 3 minute tests and plenty of them over 5miles in length. If anyone is ever looking at a targa or road rally etc organised by Kirkby Lonsdale motor club, I can advise that it is well worth the travel as the events are always very very good.

 

So I spent from 12midday till 6pm sat here, morning loop cars coming down the hill right to left and afternoon loops uphill left to right and the afternoon loops had 2 passes past me on each test, 60 cars entered and I think they past me in total 360 times, so it wasn't quiet.

 

 

I even got something to do......

 

 

 

Lads got a bogey time for the test as we had to wait till the end to get them towed out, car was unmarked pretty much and they continued for the rest of the day.

 

In terms of the mini I was going to go compete in it decided to develop clutch slip on Friday, so I am pretty sure the crankshaft oil seal has started to weep. which is a pig of a job, also as I was going with a novice Nav and the tests were going to be long and reasonably complex I decided it was easier and more helpful to go marshal.

 

The Peugeot is going to get an MOT booked for it early next week as I have the next 3 days off to just snag through it etc. Pushed it out into the sun to run it up and warm it through and check for any leaks from the cooling system as most of it has been off, plus the garage was a bomb site and needed cleaning and sweeping out. should prob give it a wash as well to be honest!!

 

 

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

21 hours ago, 28hodge said:

The Peugeot is going to get an MOT booked for it early next week as I have the next 3 days off to just snag through it etc.

It looks great &when you look at the first photos of it, the difference is amazing.

 

Does it idle nicely cold and warm? Do you have a standard pre MOT routine? I have an interest as trying to get my 309 sorted out also. Do you test the emissions using home gastester? do you test the brakes with the wheels jacked up? 

 

I guess the little things which are easier to pick up like the wiper jets being blocked and stuff like,

you can't really accurate test the brakes without a rolling road prior to MOT

 

Interesting you have 3 days off - it does take a bit of time I was struggling to do work on the 309 here whilst working plus can't concentrate/juggle stuff. I will take a couple days off actually also to do it.  

 

Hopefully it flys through

 

[28hodge 22]

It idles ok, though it’s only run for maybe a max of 5mins so not gotten up to temp fully. I have lad motorsport (now led motorsport) not far from me and they have built a lot of competition 205’sbso once road worthy I’ll take it to Andy to dyno and set up.

 

in terms of pre mot checks it’s kinda simple on this as all the front suspension components are new or refurbed but essentially just checks all front end for any worn bushes check ball joints, though I have group A wishbones on this so no ball joints, wheel bearings for any noise all lights working etc and that’s about it.

 

I have 3 days off, today being second day off. But that’s mainly as it’s kids half term, so far I’ve not even made it into the garage since Tuesday! That said I’ve orders some fresh front calipers for it as I think I have a small weep on the bleed nipples and that’s causing the poor brake feeling, they’ll pump up when not running and bleed up fine. But when running and servo assisted the pedal goes to the floor. I have a brake bleeder that connects to my compressor so shouldn’t have any air trapped but I’ll put fresh calipers on and see from there.

[DamirGTI 342]

2 hours ago, 28hodge said:

But when running and servo assisted the pedal goes to the floor.

 

That's normal .. whilst engine ON/running , the pedal "sinking" a bit while pumping it's the servo assist .

Engine OFF , then try to pump and hold - pedal should be hard and must not sink not even a little bit .

 

If there's obvious external fluid leaks , of course fix them .

 

If it's rear drums (1.6 rear system) check the drums/shoes/cylinders .. "poor" brake feel is often caused by the rear/drums on "disc font-rear drums" setup .

 

D

Edited October 28, 2021 by DamirGTI

[28hodge 22]

46 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

 

That's normal .. whilst engine ON/running , the pedal "sinking" a bit while pumping it's the servo assist .

Engine OFF , then try to pump and hold - pedal should be hard and must not sink not even a little bit .

 

If there's obvious external fluid leaks , of course fix them .

 

If it's rear drums (1.6 rear system) check the drums/shoes/cylinders .. "poor" brake feel is often caused by the rear/drums on "disc font-rear drums" setup .

 

D

No it goes straight to the floor with the engine running, there is little to no pedal feel. It’s not that it slowly sinks through the pedal travel, there is no resistance until the last inch of travel.
 

I cleaned all the bleed nipples off last night with brake cleaner and this morn I have brake fluid showing so they want swapping out, I was amazed when they cracked loose to start with, I was expecting them to snap off and I’ve never had any luck with drilling and Re tapping. I’ve just bought base model 106/saxo calipers and will swap the pad retaining bracket over. It’s only £70 for new calipers. 
 

id do need to look at the rear drums and the adjustment, I put fresh slaves in them but I do think they are a touch slack and that’s using up a chunk of the pedal stroke. 

[DamirGTI 342]

Bleed nipples usually not a problem on Girling calipers , Bendix front/rears those tend to be problematic specifically as the Bendix ones are aluminum and with the steel bleed nipple - galvanic corrosion "welds" them up together .

 

If you have a hunch it'll snap , helps to (carefully) heat up the bleed nipple and surrounding metal with blowtorch , then try to loosen/undo it .

Even if it breaks/snap leave it be , can always bleed via flex hose or line .

 

Drilling them it's tedious , and you risk damaging the sealing cone in the bottom of the caliper ... i simply weld an nut over broken nipple and extract it like so .

 

Yeah , on drums the mechanism often rusts/jams .. best to do full rebuild with the new cylinders , shoes and hardware (new springs , shoe keepers etc.) resurface/machine the drums , clean up/grease up mechanism ..

 

D

[28hodge 22]

I have spent the week messing around with brakes, haven't gotten much time last week due to half term etc, but to be honest getting an MOT isn't easy at the minute as they seem to be mega busy. also as I don't need the car instantly and I've seen enough of it since the 5th Oct I wanted a bit of a break having basically broken the back of it.

 

I have done a wiring mod to the starter solenoid, all I did was splice a wire into the wire between the fuse box and the brown multiplug under the dash and ran that straight to the starter solenoid, which seems to have helped, still occasionally get a click, but in truth, it wants the battery cables between the battery and the master switch (rally car requirement) replacing as they are all greenish on the ends and aren't helping current flow as they will have a bit of resistance in them. If I am doing that then ill move the battery to the boot, but it can wait till its got an mot.

 

And here lies the main problem, the brakes, I'm not happy with them and cant get happy with them. Hers where we currently are - 

 

New slaves in rear drums

Drums adjusted up so I can just rotate them by hand with no wheel on

New front calipers

New master cylinder

new brake lines to the front and down to the 1.6gti compensator

all lines run internally

all bleed via gravity initially then bled with one man bleeder and then an eazibleeder

clear fluid and no bubbles at any bleed nipples

bled every accessible union or joint

braided flexies and no rubber to bulge

New copper sealing washers everywhere on the flexis

 

problem I have is I cannot get a pedal that hasn't got long travel, there is brakes there and it will pull up but the pedal is near the floor, I think it would pass an MOT but I am not happy with the feeling, I have never had a problem bleeding brakes on anything so I'm a bit stumped at the minute.

 

I am wondering that as this was a gravel car if it was set up with the servo pushrod short so that you had a lot of pedal travel to modulate the braking force on gravel surfaces, the servo push rod is the only thing I haven't checked.

 

Anybody got any other ideas? 

[Richard309Sri XU5JA 205GTi 8]

got to be worth checking the servo working ok? 

 

vacuum leaks to/around the servo/hose/hose connection to the manifold? 

 

I guess in other words does the engine running have any effect on the brake performance - super fast check?

 

(don't think that you said that has been checked or replaced already;I will just also read back the thread and the above post again)

 

 

[28hodge 22]

No the servo is something I haven't touched, other than to swap out the master cylinder, when I have driven a car with the servo pipe disconnected the brakes have felt wooden and solid this doesn't feel like that and with the engine on the brake pedal feels softer and lighter than with the engine off, I also get a hiss from the servo when I first touch the brakes with the engine off after the engine has been running, which I always took to be the release of the vacuum in the servo meaning the brake servo is working and holding pressure. 

 

Just had it on the drive which is on a very slight slope, if I get it rolling and gently push the brake it will and does stop, so there is brakes there, they just seem to have a lot of modulation but it appears first push of the pedal is moving the calipers.