ML5 Installation

[petert 588]

I’ve searched, but I can’t find any conclusive, concise guide for fitting an ML5 into a 205. I’m keen to build a more reliable drivetrain for my turbo project, than a BE3. I purchased the ML5 that Calvinhorse was selling:

https://www.205gtidrivers.com/forums/topic/175137-for-sale-weird-ml5-box-with-be-bellhousing/?tab=comments#comment-1537822

 

For two reasons. One, it has a 4.54 cwp (lower than most ML5 boxes). Two, it has a cable clutch. All the boxes in Australia are hydraulic. It seems only the 806 RHD had a cable clutch.

 

The basic plan is to combine a V6 set of gears with the 4.54 cwp. That should yield about 230km/h @ 7000.

 

Clutch Operation

The cable clutch was appealing for ease of installation, but I can see that a 500Nm clutch could be an issue. It may well have to be a Saab type direct hydraulic conversion. I can deal with this if need be.

 

Linkages:

The ML5 levers move in a plane approx. 70º to the driveline axis. So adapting the Sachshift is an issue. Perhaps 406 type cables & gear stick are the only alternative? Does anyone know?

 

Dimensions:

The ML5 is approx. 400mm long. Thus longer than a BE3 but shorter than a BE3/6. It should finish flush with the inner wheel arch. The radius is an issue however. I’m guessing 25mm more than a BE3? Thus modification of the cross member will be required, for cwp cover clearance.

 

Driveshafts:

I’ve secured a pair of 406 ML5 driveshafts, from which I can use the inner CVs and hopefully the shafts themselves. I’m told the outer CVs could still be an issue. I’ve also secured a 406 ML5 bottom engine mount, which supports the larger bearing of the long driveshaft.

 

Flywheel/Clutch:

This will still be a 184mm TTV flywheel and twin plate clutch. I’ll need to buy two clutch plates and throw out bearing to suit the ML5 spline.

 

Diff:

I’ll have to buy an LSD. Probably a 3J?

 

What have I over looked or miscalculated?

[SRDT 182]

I think the V6 primary shaft should have bigger splines than the others. Also keep in mind that you're looking for ML5T parts, most ML5C internals won't fit.

 

Edit:

The gearbox in your link isn't a ML but a ME, not a problem for the diff and drive shafts I think but you need ME internals.

Also there is at least one bearing that is NLA for the ME.

Edited January 10, 2021 by SRDT

[welshpug 1,661]

I think you may need the 806/expert bearing carrier as the diff is lower in the van.

[petert 588]

Mmmm...ok, sounds like I need a plan B then. Is it possible to fit the ME 4.54 cwp into the ML5 box in the picture attached? And can I swap all the V6 gears into the same box? Is the ME a dead end?

[SRDT 182]

The ME cwp won't fit just like that:

http://www.jsoclub.com/173/BoiteMEML.htm

[petert 588]

Thanks, that is a wealth of information. Do you have any clues for transferring the V6 gearset into the ML5T box?

[SRDT 182]

Nope, that's not someting that is often done.

Have you considered using a ML6C with the engine clocked at 18.5° instead of 30°? This gearbox is stronger and still in production.

[petert 588]

No, I haven't. Is the rotation just to get the gearbox mount in the right plane? Which models would fit the XU10 block?

 

407 EW12J4?

Edited January 10, 2021 by petert

[kutija 1 1 Cars]

As someone said the gearbox you've bought is not ML but ME.

You can't interchange ML and ME gears.

Maaaaybe you could use MG gears inside ME but I doubt.

 

FD you have is the shortest for ME .Actually there is shorter 5.16 FD for ME but it's for an armoured citroen XM which would be impossible to find

These are your gear options for ME:

1. 12x41 or 12x38 or 11x41

2. 22x40 or 18x33 or 18x35

3. 28x35

4. 32x31 or 34x30

5. 43x33 or 46x31

 

The ME gearbox you have now should have these gears:

1. 12x41 or 11x41 - check the number on your gearbox 2HMxx?

2. 18x35

3. 28x35

4. 34x30

5. 46x31

 

It's not a problem to change 5th gear to 43x33 but if you want to change 4th gear to 32x31 you need to change first line which means you need another ME gearbox for donor.But this should not be such a problem.

 

With 43x33 fifth gear you should have 226km/h @7000 rpm.

So buy one more ME gearbox and swap first line and 4th and 5th gear.

 

406 driveshafts you have should have 25 splines on outer CV joint so you should be able to use with 205 wheel hubs if they are the same as on 306,405,etc.

 

If you gonna use cable linkages you can use from 605 and 806 or 405T16 which are less robust (the part on the gearbox) but these are hard to get.

 

If you gonna use hydraulic clutch operation there is slave cylinder from bmw that fits on the gearbox and for the master you can use whatever you can fit. Also note that hydraulic control is used with pull type clutches.

 

If you gonna rebuild ME there is plenty of info on T16 forum.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by kutija

[SRDT 182]

22 hours ago, petert said:

No, I haven't. Is the rotation just to get the gearbox mount in the right plane? Which models would fit the XU10 block?

 

407 EW12J4?

It's mostly to have the diff and drive shafts in the right place, you could probably rotate the whole thing on the diff axis to have the engine at 30° but then it would be higher.

 

The EW10 should have the XU pattern, if not then the DW10 has it.

 

If you go with the ME the 405 T16 guys can indeed help you, they are stuck with this gearbox after all. You can even order custom 5th gears and cwp... for a price.

[petert 588]

The EW12J4 ML6C certainly has a nice set of ratios:

cwp. 4.92

1. 3.07

2. 1.782

3. 1.19

4. 0.902

5. 0.733

6. 0.647

 

The only problem I can see is lack of an LSD.

[dcc 855]

there is 100% a plated diff available that fits the ml6c

 

I have seen 1 in there

 

I think, from memory the cw is m14 and the diff is m12, needs minor machining to the threads to fix

[SRDT 182]

They went from M10x125-40 to M12x125-35.

[petert 588]

On 1/11/2021 at 10:00 AM, SRDT said:

Have you considered using a ML6C with the engine clocked at 18.5° instead of 30°? This gearbox is stronger and still in production.

If I rotate the engine 11.5º, won't I need to rotate the bottom engine mount back 11.5º, to keep the bearing in the correct place for driveshaft alignment?

 

I estimate the difference between the diff centreline and the engine mount centreline, to be 43mm.

Edited August 4, 2021 by petert

[SRDT 182]

You need to check if the ML-DW10 engine mount fits, it should as long as Peugeot didn't had to mess with the block.

The XU10 is based on the XUD just like the DW10, most XUD features where kept by default until a change was needed.

 

BDW the old DW12 (2.2 HDI) has a special block that is taller and with another bolt pattern for the gearbox.

Today's DW12 is based on the current DW10 block but after so many years it has changed a lot.

[petert 588]

Ok, I think I understand now. I have an engine mount from an XUD11. It fits on an XU10 block. Will that suffice?

[SRDT 182]

The XUD11 is slanted at 30° so that won't do with a ML6C.

It looks like all DW10 are slanted at 18.5° when mated to a ME/ML gearbox so you can look at 2.0 HDI 406 or 806 engine mounts.

[petert 588]

It seems the 307 XSE 2.0 HDi had the ML6C here. That’s probably the easiest target. Thanks