Gearbox for EW turbo

[erick314 0]

Hi,

I have an  EW10J4 forged and turbocharged engine. Power figures are 278whp/37kgfm in the dyno run. The car is for fast road and also trackday use.

I´m currently using some sort of BE gearbox but I`m not 100% sure what is inside as who  did the engine/gear swap for me did not kept the details for the gearbox used.

I`m concerned as power figure may be to high for the BE gearbox (rated as 250Nm = 25Kgfm) and also for regular use rev is too high for road use (120kmh = 74mph  @ 3300rpm) and my top speed in my current gearbox setup is limited up to 200-205kmh (124-127mph). I`m not 100% sure but I believe based in the gear ratio and also speed that my gearbox may be a BE4/5  20DL08/20DL09  or   a 20DM71.

 

I´m looking for an alternative to have a longer ratio for higher top speed, lower rpm at 75mph range (road use) and also be strong enough (safe) for the turbo. I believe it is very hard to achieve it all. A forged gearbox is not an option as it is too expensive and takes too long to build/prepare.

 

So some questions I´d like to ask for help :

1- power figure related:  is there any alternative to build a stronger gearbox for that application? Any BE gearbox such as R models may support or be rated for higher torque? 

 

2- power figure related: is there any alternative to swap and build a MCM 6 speed gearbox from a DS3/THP ? I`m from Brazil and we don´t have many gearbox models here. Not sure if a semi-automatic housing from a Xsara Picasso could be used to swap MCM 6 speed inside it and connect to the EW engine? My question is raised because that MCM 6 speed gearbox has a good ratio and top speed and it also stands 300-400whp/40-45Kgfm  in many DS3 in Brazil that are lasting for a long time, so I know that MCM gearbox is strong and safe for the turbo power figure I have. I also know that ML5 or ML6T may not fit in the engine bay as it may touch the wheelhub or close to that.

 

3- if I keep using my current BE gearbox , would it be possible to just change ratio for 5th gear, for example, and use a 50x33 (0.66 5th)  from a BE4-5L?  Not sure if changing 5th gear would have any other concern or special care I should take? Not familiar if that is a simple change or not.

 

4- if I keep using my current BE gearbox , would it be possible to change FD, for example, and use a 3.78 (from BE4 / BE4R)  or even 4.05 (from BE4 S) ? Not sure if changing FD would have any other concern or special care I should take?Not familiar if that is a simple change or not.

 

Sorry for so many questions, and also sorry for my English in case it is not 100% clear.

Edited November 5, 2020 by erick314

[welshpug 1,661]

I have heard of an ML6 in a 206 turbo EW10, ran 600 bhp.

 

unfortunately I know nothing more about it as the car is no longer local.

 

your 3300 rpm at 120 kph sounds perfect, it is not Diesel!

 

 

your gearbox will already be a BE4R type.

[SRDT 182]

The ML gearbox can be fitted to the 205, you need to make some room for the diff but there is more than one 205 V6 around.

It should also fit in the 206, the 206 RC Gr.A was using a sequential gearbox based on the ML5T.

[petert 588]

What about fitting a Satchell dog box gear set to the BE3? You can have what ever cwp you want.

 

you can change 5th and the cwp of your current gearbox. Swapping 5th is easy but changing the cwp is a full strip. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by petert

[erick314 0]

On 11/5/2020 at 6:26 AM, welshpug said:

I have heard of an ML6 in a 206 turbo EW10, ran 600 bhp.

 

unfortunately I know nothing more about it as the car is no longer local.

 

your 3300 rpm at 120 kph sounds perfect, it is not Diesel!

 

 

your gearbox will already be a BE4R type.

Thanks for the details and feedback.

Since I need to work out a new clutch, I will try to remove gearbox and try to confirm existing gears ratio. If it is a BE4R, I`m considering to change just 5th gear and make a little bit longer.

The ML6 would be interesting, but I can´t find any ML6 here in Brazil as it has not been used or sold here. I know maybe 1 or 2 gearbox of that used in EW10 forged turbo and also XU forged turbo, but the guys had to import.

 

I`m still wondering if 3300rpm@120kph is fine or not. Seems to be fine as the car response is fast. But since I live just a 300m from the road, I usually drive at 120kmh as a regular cruise speed, not for fast use, and I was thinking about lowering a little bit rev to 2500-2800rpm range to try to be more confortable, less noise. But I´m not familiar if doing that longer 5th ration would give me any other "problem" or maybe later I can regret for any reason. Maybe I need to try the longer 5th and check it. If I like it, I can keep. If not, get back to current situation/setup.

[erick314 0]

On 11/5/2020 at 4:37 PM, SRDT said:

The ML gearbox can be fitted to the 205, you need to make some room for the diff but there is more than one 205 V6 around.

It should also fit in the 206, the 206 RC Gr.A was using a sequential gearbox based on the ML5T.

thanks for the info. Sorry for making the question in the group, as it is 205 related, and my car is a 206.

I will try to find more details about 206 RC Gr.A with the sequential one. Maybe it is too much $$ for my case, but try to find information to understand it anyway

[erick314 0]

On 11/5/2020 at 6:12 PM, petert said:

What about fitting a Satchell dog box gear set to the BE3? You can have what ever cwp you want.

 

you can change 5th and the cwp of your current gearbox. Swapping 5th is easy but changing the cwp is a full strip. 

I saw some dog box setup and all I could find was shorter ratios, for fast car response.  Not longer ratios for top speed. I also saw that dog box was not so cheap.

 

So my case I´m thinking to make longer ratio, and try to have some safe setup: I see some guys using forged gearbox and custom built, but they have some problem and take months to have new gears. That is why I was looking and considering at first moment to try to find some "OEM" based setup for my application, if possible. So if I need replacement parts for example , I don´t need to rely on someone to custom build it for me, and take a few months.

 

Not an easy task and investigation.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I will research it a little bit more to see if could be an option.

[petert 588]

See attached. No, it's not cheap but nothing that can reliably hold on to 360+Nm will be. Aside from the strength of the gears/shaft themselves, the other issue is the case. The later BE4/BE4R case has an improved bearing on the end of the 1st line shaft. It's possible to modify the earlier case to accept the bigger bearing.

 

The earlier BE1/BE3 gears are actually stronger than the later gears, which are finer to reduce noise. Thus the ultimate cheap arse gearbox is probably a BE3 Mi16 gearset, with 3.62, 3.78 or 3.94 cwp in a later case.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by petert

[SRDT 182]

The ML6C is rated at 370 Nm except on first gear and reverse. Length is 423.8mm (4mm more than the ML5T) when the BE4 is at 386mm.

A ML plate LSD isn't as cheap as a BE one but if you are fine with stock ratios then it's the only racing part you need.

[erick314 0]

7 hours ago, SRDT said:

The ML6C is rated at 370 Nm except on first gear and reverse. Length is 423.8mm (4mm more than the ML5T) when the BE4 is at 386mm.

A ML plate LSD isn't as cheap as a BE one but if you are fine with stock ratios then it's the only racing part you need.

Thanks a lot.

I'm not fully familiar: is the ML plate LSD the necessary part for limited slip differential and to change CWP ratio?

I was searching for ML6C ratios and could not find anything so far. Will try to take a deeper look at servicebox to see if I can find additional information.

 

If the stock ratio is fine for my turbo setup, I could use it stock without any additional change.  As it is around 40mm longer, I believe that I still have ,those additional 4cm free .

 

Not sure, but found this one here : 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/133502340901

 

Is there anyp Special issue that I should take care of look when searching for ML6C?

 

[Type-R 3]

Good priced Quaife LSD for ML5, don't know whether or not it fits the ML6C

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//333507747693

[welshpug 1,661]

they aren't a direct fit but easy to modify, I think the ml6 used bigger bolts or something along those lines

[erick314 0]

On 11/9/2020 at 5:18 PM, SRDT said:

The ML6C is rated at 370 Nm except on first gear and reverse. Length is 423.8mm (4mm more than the ML5T) when the BE4 is at 386mm.

A ML plate LSD isn't as cheap as a BE one but if you are fine with stock ratios then it's the only racing part you need.

 

Quick question: are there any differences between ML6C for  different engines versions? Any specifc that I should like for better fit for my EW10J4 in the 206?

Started doing some search in Servicebox to find further details and found that gearbox is found in different cars and engines. Just to avoid anything wrong. For example, should a gearbox from a 406 2.2 petrol fit better than a C4 2.0 diesel one? Or any other concern for proper setup?

[SRDT 182]

The bolt pattern of the EW and DW10 should be the same, the DW12 however is special and so are the DV6 and ES9.

If needed you can swap bellhousings, even with a ML5C.

Also if you plan to keep the stock diff check on servicebox if it has 2 or 4 planetary gears.