1,9 jetro 75kw wont start

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

14 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Maybe I missed something or lost track of the initial issue...  but could we already verify that there is actually fuel to the injectors?

I also think its a fuel problem, but how can I check it? If I pull injectors out, there must be than replaced some seals etc before going back, am I right?

 

this is plug right after cranking the engine

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

11 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

Fuel presence test is easy if it doesn't start , immediately after cranking with no start by pulling the plugs out and looking at them visually if they're wet from non ignited fuel , and sniff/nose test them for the smell of it too !

Hi Damir,

 

I posted photo of plug right after cranking, I dont see it as it was wet, looked dry to me....but still I can smell petrol from plugs, but it looked to me like petrol was more on the thread of plug neither on top

 

I measured engine pressure today all chambers are 125-130 PSI

 

Can u please tell me what numbers and on which pins to measure the dizzy cable, as u mentioned before, thx alot

 

Amplifier:

 

is Bosch, will post photo

 

I wasnt changing it, but I told guy who was servicing car, to place a thermal paste underneath the new module, like 10 times, and on photo I see some "gray" stuff behind amplifier, so I believe he did not forget this, I was really pushing on him to not forget this

 

I also took the old amplifier (bigger gray-white Duceliier) and tried to replace a new one, no change happened

 

 

 

 

[DamirGTI 342]

If there's just the fuel missing , it'll most certainly start and run happily on the start spray as an "artificial fuel" .. which you've said it didn't .

 

Thus i'm more inclined on spark problem or both spark and fuel .

 

What's the sate of the ignition leads , distributor cap and rotor arm ? all good ?

 

Did you connect the signal cable wires onto the dizzy pick up coil right way round ? i.e. when standing in front of the car , red wire goes on top and black on the bottom .. it wont work if connected other way round  .

 

Also , can try to advance the dizzy a bit .. and see if it then "wakes up" .. mark current dizzy position , then loosen two 11m nuts and (standing sideways left , looking at the dizzy directly) swing the dizzy to the back of the car to advance it (like "clockwise" to advance , "counter clockwise" to retard the timing) .

 

Will write about the pick up coil testing how to later ..

 

D

[DamirGTI 342]

Firstly , undo the signal cable from the pick up coil , set the multimeter on Ohm’s reading , connect the probes on the pick up coil terminals and measure the resistance .. should be 330 Ohm’s or +/- near that value .

 

 

 

If that’s good should be fine , but continue further to see if the signal is being made and sent trough signal cable to the ignition module :

 

Few ways to do the test , description of how I’m doing it myself ..

 

Remove the dizzy from the engine (mark position first !) , as it'll be "on the bench testing" , leave the signal cable on/connected , set the multimeter on continuity testing/speaker and put one probe on the middle terminal on the yellow 3 pin plug of the signal cable and other probe on the one of the pins on the sides  (see photo – black and red dot) .. and spin the dizzy shaft with hand .

 

 

If the cable is good and the pick up coil signal is made and sent trough it , the multimeter will emit a tone kinda like beeping "morse code" , but only when you spin the dizzy shaft - the faster you spin the dizzy shaft the faster it'll beep .. also , wiggle the cable a bit while you doing so ...

 

If you get no sound signal while spinning the shaft or the signal gets interrupted when twisting/bending the signal cable - it'll be no good i.e. problem ..

 

Also , can do the test with the dizzy in place on the engine , but then remove all the spark plugs (for ease of turning the engine by hand) , connect the multimeter on the signal cable as above , and spin the engine by hand via crank pulley (haven’t tried myself but guess you can crank the engine via key/starter too .. but then the “sound” signal will be too fast , better to do voltage instead if measuring while cranking , pick up coil should generate around 7 to 9V ) .. expect the same results as above if good/no good .

 

 

D

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Additionally , 

 

Over here when searching older posts , there's some pictures of the (Bosch) dizzy side of the signal cable made by myself which are wrong ! (i was young and enthusiastic at the time !)

 

These :

 

 

 

Again , wrong because of the incorrect wire orientation on the above photos , correctly must be other way round - red wire on top , black on the bottom .

 

If connected per the photos above the engine will not start . The wires must be switched over .

 

Note that the Ducellier dizzy signal cable is different , i.e. it has different wire colours (red and green)

 

D

Edited November 26, 2020 by DamirGTI

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

4 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

Firstly , undo the signal cable from the pick up coil , set the multimeter on Ohm’s reading , connect the probes on the pick up coil terminals and measure the resistance .. should be 330 Ohm’s or +/- near that value .

 

 

 

If that’s good should be fine , but continue further to see if the signal is being made and sent trough signal cable to the ignition module :

 

Few ways to do the test , description of how I’m doing it myself ..

 

Remove the dizzy from the engine (mark position first !) , as it'll be "on the bench testing" , leave the signal cable on/connected , set the multimeter on continuity testing/speaker and put one probe on the middle terminal on the yellow 3 pin plug of the signal cable and other probe on the one of the pins on the sides  (see photo – black and red dot) .. and spin the dizzy shaft with hand .

 

 

If the cable is good and the pick up coil signal is made and sent trough it , the multimeter will emit a tone kinda like beeping "morse code" , but only when you spin the dizzy shaft - the faster you spin the dizzy shaft the faster it'll beep .. also , wiggle the cable a bit while you doing so ...

 

If you get no sound signal while spinning the shaft or the signal gets interrupted when twisting/bending the signal cable - it'll be no good i.e. problem ..

 

Also , can do the test with the dizzy in place on the engine , but then remove all the spark plugs (for ease of turning the engine by hand) , connect the multimeter on the signal cable as above , and spin the engine by hand via crank pulley (haven’t tried myself but guess you can crank the engine via key/starter too .. but then the “sound” signal will be too fast , better to do voltage instead if measuring while cranking , pick up coil should generate around 7 to 9V ) .. expect the same results as above if good/no good .

 

thx alot Damir, gonna look at it during the weekend... not much light after work

 

dizzy cap, rotor arm look good, they are not new, but no big wear.....ignition leads have round 30 000... car died suddenly after running for like half minute and from that its not starting so all wires arent bad I think at one moment

 

 

to the wrong connector setup:

 

I wasnt cutting/reworking the old cable, the second one I replaced it with, is luckily same type in really good shape, plug and play, so I believe no way the wires can be switched

 

also I bought new crank sensor for some Opel, and will rework the old cracked cable according to your guide

 

 

thank you again for your help

Edited November 26, 2020 by HoRSiCZeK

[DamirGTI 342]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:58 AM, HoRSiCZeK said:

I measured engine pressure today all chambers are 125-130 PSI

 

 

 

Those compression readings are a bit on the "low side" , granted it's low compression engine and if measuring on cold engine , but still .. a bit low .

 

Has the timing belt been checked ? wonder if it's jumped off a few teeth ..

 

D

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Hi there guys,

 

I here with last news:

 

We towed car to service guy, to properly check timing belt and try more stuff, and timing belt looks okay

 

We then tried to measure Voltage from pickup coil and I did not get any values, neither on right-middle or left-middle pins so I believe we finally found it

 

Can someone please write right manufacture number for pickup coil sensor for DFZ?

 

Also can be no voltage be caused by some mechanical problem inside dizzy?

 

thx for any help!

[DamirGTI 342]

Did you do the test with the dizzy shaft spinning or with the shaft stationary ? as if done stationary you will not get any voltage reading .

 

Presumably done via signal cable too , if so disconnect the cable and see if there's signal generated on the pick up coil terminals directly , as the signal cable might be bad .. with multimeter or can even connect an led diode on the coil terminals .

 

Pick up coil is like a mini alternator inside the dizzy , hence the reason you must spin the dizzy shaft for it to create voltage ..

 

 

OE part No. for the pick up coil is : 5905 17

 

However you'll struggle to find new one .. Bosch doesn't make them anymore for quite a while , few of the aftermarket brands still make them though ("Facet") so can try to order one .

 

Otherwise , find second hand used dizzy of the same type and use it as an pick up coil donor .. it's not a GTi exclusive part , base model dizzy coil is also the same but must be Bosch dizzy as the coil from Ducellier dizzy is different ... look at the scrapyards for old base model 205/309/405/605's as well as Citroen AX/BX/ZX/XM's .

 

 

D

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

12 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

Did you do the test with the dizzy shaft spinning or with the shaft stationary ? as if done stationary you will not get any voltage reading .

 

Presumably done via signal cable too , if so disconnect the cable and see if there's signal generated on the pick up coil terminals directly , as the signal cable might be bad .. with multimeter or can even connect an led diode on the coil terminals .

 

OE part No. for the pick up coil is : 5905 17

 

However you'll struggle to find new one .. Bosch doesn't make them anymore for quite a while , few of the aftermarket brands still make them though ("Facet") so can try to order one .

 

Otherwise , find second hand used dizzy of the same type and use it as an pick up coil donor .. it's not a GTi exclusive part , base model dizzy coil is also the same but must be Bosch dizzy as the coil from Ducellier dizzy is different ... look at the scrapyards for old base model 205/309/405/605's as well as Citroen AX/BX/ZX/XM's .

 

thx for help Damir,

 

yup I totally understand whats this about, dont worry that we tried to measure voltage with static dizzy  

 

test was done with dizzy on the engine and cranking, and with a new undamaged cable, I did not get any voltage, just some undervolt misreadings, and only on one side pin, other was totally dead

 

I asked guys to pick the dizzy out and we will see more, if there isnt some mechanical dmg

 

 

I also have a dizzy from that D6B engine, so can I use pickup coil from here if it is Bosh dizzy system? and cannot use it if it is Ducellier? They were different in resistance we found on internet? 330 ohm vs 370 ohm? I am just curious about

 

Also, hold all fingers, I found one Bosch pickup coil in CZ eshop, so hopefully is new one on the way!  

[DamirGTI 342]

That'll be bad coil then , as even if you spin the dizzy shaft ever so slightly/slowly with fingers some small voltage will be generated if the coil is good .

 

No reading on center and one of the side terminals of the 3pin plug is normal , as the one of the three terminal on the side is shielding wire (for the noise suppression) , other/opposite side terminal plus center terminal however must read signal voltage if the coil is good . 

 

Unlikely it'll be mechanical damage within the dizzy if it spins , i had some rare weird cases where the main dizzy shaft snapped internally but guess that's 1 out of 100 000 , it'll have to be stuck/sized up i.e. mechanism not able to spin for such to happen , which on yours isn't the case .

 

Pick up coil (wire winding) wears down cause of age , heat , vibrations , oil contamination ..

PSA distributors are pretty good/reliable with regards to the pick up coil wear/damage , over the +17 years i remember just a few cases with bad pick up coils on PSA cars from the 80's/90's .

Other car brands are much worse with more common/often pick up coil wear/damage occurring , it's a bit nasty surprise/breakdown myself i had that once happened to me (not in a 205) while driving on the autobahn miles from home , at full speed there was just a few sec. of violent shaking/misfiring and soon afterwards the engine shut off completely .   

 

Yes , you can use pick up coil from the 1.9 D6B dizzy  .. but , use complete D6B dizzy instead of DFZ unit , might be even better for the engine performance wise (less initial spark advance built inside the dizzy) , if that's what you have i'd certainly try that first .

Fit the D6B dizzy and see what happens .. if the pick up coil is bad on your original dizzy , it'll start and run with the D6B one .

 

The shape and size , as well as the fitment of the pick up coil is different between the Bosch and Ducellier , thus not interchangeable between the two .

 

D

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by DamirGTI

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Okay thats a good info that those are interchangeable, gonna try it after today/tommorow work. Thx alot again Damir!

On 12/9/2020 at 9:06 PM, DamirGTI said:

Yes , you can use pick up coil from the 1.9 D6B dizzy  .. but , use complete D6B dizzy instead of DFZ unit , might be even better for the engine performance wise (less initial spark advance built inside the dizzy) , if that's what you have i'd certainly try that first .

Fit the D6B dizzy and see what happens .. if the pick up coil is bad on your original dizzy , it'll start and run with the D6B one .

 

The shape and size , as well as the fitment of the pick up coil is different between the Bosch and Ducellier , thus not interchangeable between the two .

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Yes , fit that complete 1.9 D6B dizzy on you're current DFZ engine .. should start up and run , and the ignition advance curve will be even better for the engine will pick up some power .. just adjust the timing once you fit the dizzy .

 

D

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Hi there guys in new year,

 

so freeezing times are gone, but lockdown is up sadly, so bad times for finding someone to service Pug right now

still I changed the dizzy and no change so I will sum up things:

 

Car is still turning engine but doesnt start and doesnt even fire to the exhaust, changed things are:

 

- new fuel pump

- second dizzy from D6B engine I bought recently - with new cap and new cables

- new dizzy signal cable, made blank new from crank sensor as Damir guided

- new spark plugs

- bought and changed new tachy relay from shop, no change

- new ignition coil

- new battery

- engine starter is after restore, engine rotates good

 

- I  measured AFM, water temp sensor, all good values

- I tried AFM from D6B, no change

- I tried if I can see spark with plug out of engine, yes

- I measured the engine pressure and it was all good

- we took car to small service, where guys checked the timing belt etc and nothing looked skipped or wrong, sadly they did not had the fuel pressure gauge

 

 

I am guessing that car is not injecting fuel, what can be reason to this?

 

Only think left in this way is fuel pressure regulator?

 

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

H

 

 

 

[PhilNW 44]

Suggest that next questions to answer are

 

- is fuel getting to fuel rail ( take off the inlet pipe to the rail and feed it into a suitable size receptacle and try the starter) and

 

-  at what pressure, will need a gauge for that.

 

Check feed and return pipes  for blockages

 

Make sure you disconnect the ignition system to ensure there are no spare sparks around when/if petrol comes out of the pipes or the injectors.

 

After that suggest you need to check if injectors are firing, electrically and mechanically