1,9 jetro 75kw wont start

[welshpug 1,661]

is dfz not on Motronic therefore not compatible with D6B Jetronic Afm.

 

cts could be a culprit causing overfuelling, these are all the same bosch 2 pin blue sensor afaik.

 

 

have you confirmed fuel pressure?

[DamirGTI 342]

Mei , DFZ is still Jetronic .. DKZ is Motronic .

 

 

To the OP : Don't guess and "fill up" with parts and expect it being fixed , that way it soon starts to be unnecessarily expensive !

 

I'd like to hear the result of this test (only need to buy a can of start spray) :

 

 

C/P

When it refuses to start , try this to determine what is missing spark or fuel :

 

Use start spray for testing purpose , spray some inside the inlet tract and try cranking :

 

- if it starts and runs on spray then there's spark but no/lacks fuel

- if it doesn't start nor runs on spray (not even a cough) , usually no spark (or weak spark) , or can be both no spark and no fuel (to divide that further : take the plugs out and see if they're wet after cranking for a while .. if so then there's fuel , so lacks just the spark)

 

The fact that you're seeing the spark when testing the plugs outside , doesn't mean that when inside the cylinder they'll ignite the mixture .. the spark might be weak , or occurring at the wrong time .

Had this happened to me before when testing/trying/fixing a "no start" , and it bite me in the a** few times on a few cars .

 

You did mention something about the ignition module , what happened ?

 

D

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

8 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

I'd like to hear the result of this test (only need to buy a can of start spray) :

 

C/P

When it refuses to start , try this to determine what is missing spark or fuel :

 

Use start spray for testing purpose , spray some inside the inlet tract and try cranking :

 

- if it starts and runs on spray then there's spark but no/lacks fuel

- if it doesn't start nor runs on spray (not even a cough) , usually no spark (or weak spark) , or can be both no spark and no fuel (to divide that further : take the plugs out and see if they're wet after cranking for a while .. if so then there's fuel , so lacks just the spark)

I did not had break cleaner at home, going to buy it today and try this 

 

When testing this with start spray/break cleaner I should spray it directly to inlet, but what about AFM? car will not start with AFM disconnected right? since I have direct air intake I should spray break cleaner behind afm through throttle body but with AFM connected to the ECU?

 

8 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

The fact that you're seeing the spark when testing the plugs outside , doesn't mean that when inside the cylinder they'll ignite the mixture .. the spark might be weak , or occurring at the wrong time .

Had this happened to me before when testing/trying/fixing a "no start" , and it bite me in the a** few times on a few cars .

 

You did mention something about the ignition module , what happened ?

 

I know, I was just saying that I can see its physically there, so we know it at least somehow sparks

 

I measured ignition coil resistances, as we talked earlier in this topic, and as u wrote numbers are within tolerances, but I will try to find some used one for try change

 

OT: Ignition amplifier is new for like month, which I tought would get rid of stuttering around 5000 rpm, but it did not, stuttering remained untill car was running...

 

in few days I will change the tachy relay, but since the injectors are clicking it looks like it will not solve the problem

 

so weak spark, weak pressure or wrong time of spark, gonna test that break cleaner and we will see

 

 

since I dont have a fuel pressure gauge, its gonna be harder with thesting this, looks like i will have to buy this

 

 

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Use start spray , not the brake cleaner .. start spray is meant for the job it's mainly ether gas and some high volatile petrol chemicals , brake cleaner is mostly solvent .

While all these spray stuff including WD40 will burn , it's the gas that you want in this case thus use the start spray .

 

AFM on a 205 GTi is not a "hot wire" or "hot film" sensor as on most of modern cars (MAF sensors) , it's safe to spray directly into it wont do any damage don't worry .

 

If you have open inlet with a cone filter rather than air box then yes , remove it and spray directly inside the sensor .. with an screwdriver crack open the sensor flap and spray some inside (or use the spray straw but be careful that it doesn't let loose and fall off inside the inlet) then try cranking the engine ..

 

Cylindrical coils are pretty much bullet proof , they rarely go bad .. unlike the later smaller square coils .

 

Leave the fuel pressure for now , if there was pressurized fuel when you tried opening up the supply hose nut on the rail let's suppose that'll be fine then .

Anyhow , the above test will tell you if it's the fuel or spark problem , or both .. leaving just the compression which needs to be checked out .

 

 

What brand is that replacement ignition module ? did you put the thermal transfer paste/jelly at the back of the module before mounting in on the alu. plate ?

Ignition module often causes all kind of starting and running problems , some of the cheap aftermarket modules do not work so good , but the worse mistake here is fitting it dry without the heat sink paste as it heats up and if dry without paste it'll burn out . 

 

 

D

 

 

 

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

On 11/9/2020 at 11:46 AM, HoRSiCZeK said:

 

pressure regulator - I found new one from UK on ebay for round 35e, so no suggestions buying this for example? I wanted to place new since we are going to make that D6b head etc..., so I am changing whats possible and accessible

 

 

As I said I don't think that the fuel pressure regulator is the source of your problems, either.

BUT IF you choose to replace the fuel pressure regulator right now, I would not go for an OEM regulator. There is an adjustable fuel pressure regulator from Malpassi that is a straight fit for Peugeot XU Engines. You can set it to 2,5 Bar for a stock DFZ engine, and eventually adjust it for tuned engines.
I read that you might go down the D6B route later on, and if you do, you will probably find yourself fiddling heavily with the engine management (I've just recently been there / done that on an upgraded DFZ engine - ask me if you need anything).
Being able to adjust fuel pressure WILL NOT offer any adavantages on a stock engine, BUT might come in handy on a modified engine. Also, if you plan to use the 120 motronic or 128 hp jetronic engine managements, either one of those run on 3,0 Bar and need corresponding injection valves.
However, the reason why I replaced my stock regulator much earlier (and why I said it can be a "good idea"), was simply that it had developed an internal leak, causing fuel to get in the intake manifold through the vacuum hose.

The Malpassi adjustable regulator that I then used on a stock DFZ engine with 2,5 bars I think had their number 30067INJE406. You might want to check out http://www.officinamalpassi.it/en/injection-fuel-pressure-regulators/1-1-rate-standard/406-detail.html

I later used a different Malpassi "rising rate" adjustable regulator with progressive fuel enrichment as a work-around on a tuned DFZ engine, because the original Jetronc would not deliver enough fuel in high rev / full throttle situations. My advice would be to make plans forthat before changing camshaft and/or cylinder head.

But back to topic: Can we rule out that it's just a blocked fuel filter?
It would be a simple solution, without having to touch AFM, ignition or any sensors...

[welshpug 1,661]

I would not recommend using an adjustable regulator, they are renowned for not holding a proper pressure.

[DamirGTI 342]

The most problematic part with the D6B head on a DFZ bottom end mix is - ignition !

 

If one intends to do this while retaining stock D6B dizzy advance curve it'll be bad , it'll detonate/"pink itself" to death unless running it overly retarded which is a shame really and not much point if any doing it in the first place then .

 

Recrurved dizzy at least as an cheaper option , mappable ignition best .. and such engine must be run on at least 98RON petrol , the higher the better (100RON) .

 

 

D

 

 

 

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

1 hour ago, welshpug said:

I would not recommend using an adjustable regulator, they are renowned for not holding a proper pressure.

That's interesting, I've never heard of that, but one might want to take it into account.
At least my adjustable regulator seems to keep pressure fine (I am constantly monitoring AFR using a wideband oxygen sensor and a STACK gauge - so far, no oddities)

47 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

The most problematic part with the D6B head on a DFZ bottom end mix is - ignition !

 

If one intends to do this while retaining stock D6B dizzy advance curve it'll be bad , it'll detonate/"pink itself" to death unless running it overly retarded which is a shame really and not much point if any doing it in the first place then .

 

Recrurved dizzy at least as an cheaper option , mappable ignition best .. and such engine must be run on at least 98RON petrol , the higher the better (100RON) .

 

 

D

 

 

 

Absolutely - that, and other potential problems with that combo.

I'd say let's help Jakub with his starting issue first, and if he later on decides to upgrade his DFZ, it seems that there is plenty of experience here just waiting to be shared

[DamirGTI 342]

1 hour ago, Kobayashi said:

At least my adjustable regulator seems to keep pressure fine (I am constantly monitoring AFR using a wideband oxygen sensor and a STACK gauge - so far, no oddities)

 

 

Same here .. i also have wideband plugged in all the time for the past +/- 10 years on my daily 205 , with an FSE adjustable press. reg. , all spot on with the mixture across the rev range .

 

Also tried and tested both the adjustable and the OE reg. (new from the box Bosch unit) with fuel press. gauge , and oddly the OE item varies pressure much more than the aftermarket adjustable item (gauge needle bounces/jumps around more on the OE regulator) .

 

Wouldn't really fit one on a otherwise std. engine though , think the most of the bad rep for them adjustable regulators is from the past 90's "tuning era" people fitting them on std. engines and (improperly) adjusted them "by feel/ear/nose .." whatever but the pressure gauge or the WB probe .. which made them over fuel the engine .

 

 

D

 

 

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Hi there guys,

 

so story continues

 

today I measured the resistence of ECU temp sensor, since I had battery out for charge (beaten from trying to start )

 

aaaaaaand I found this crack on distributor cable.... :// coming from the front of the dizzy.....so I found a problem finally?

 

I tested start spray, car started for like 2 secs then died, then refused to start again, with at least half of start spray sprayed, no more start...

 

so maybe I was "fiddling" with this broken spot a it got to work for while, but then died by vibrations etc?

 

 

OT: maybe this spot was making my stuttering problem at high revs before?

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Yes , through that cable passes distributor pick up coil signal to the ignition module .. like cranking signal cable for the engine management , connection must be in good condition otherwise you'll be left with both no spark no fuel (if it breaks apart completely) .

 

That'll be it , fix it and should be fine ... there's no replacement cables unfortunately , but it's easy enough to fix ... or make a new one using cable and connector from an old knock or CAS sensor .

 

 

D

 

 

[Telf 224 2 Cars]

Its in poor condition but it looks like the inner black and red cable are intact. The copper is a pigtail that runs the length of the cable if i remember correctly . The outer is split and it looks like the shield has failed.  Not ideal but im not convinced unless those cables are open circuit

[DamirGTI 342]

Insulation is torn exposing copper strands , on a red wire at least => red wire copper strands touching the cable shield foil which bridges red and shielding wire together => signal f***d , leaking to ground trough shielding wire on the module side (pin No.3 on the module is shielding , pin No.3 connected internally within the module with the pin No.2 which is - ground)

 

 

Quote

I tested start spray, car started for like 2 secs then died, then refused to start again, with at least half of start spray sprayed, no more start...

 

so maybe I was "fiddling" with this broken spot a it got to work for while, but then died by vibrations etc?

 

 

 

 

 

Test result : no spark or weak spark ! .. probably no fuel as well if going by the looks of the spark plugs on the first page .

 

Intermittent seems kind of at least on the first start , depending the damaged signal cable movement "make-or-break" the contact .

 

 

D

 

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Yup you are right guys, the red is without insulation and bridged with the shielding, and whole spot is soaked in oil...

 

Main insulation is also broken at the yellow connector side, slightly dmged shielding...

 

I hope I will find some spare in better state

 

Those cables are specific for engine versions or somehow interchangeable?

 

The plastic housing of the connector side at the dizzy looks like its two piece and that the cable and dizzy connector can be dismantled from here, am I right?

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by HoRSiCZeK

[DamirGTI 342]

Pretty much specific yes .. though you can find some similar in other Peugeot/Citroen cars from the 80's which uses "pick up" ignition triggering system .

 

Guess any of the old used ones will be in kinda similar state if not worse .. as it's really important piece of cable which can literary left you in the middle of nowhere if it breaks , i really wouldn't want to risk with 25y old second hand one .

 

No new ones unfortunately , but it's really simple to fix/repair or make a new one .

As said , can use knock or CAS sensor to make new/replacement cable .. just cut off the sensor head and use the cable and connector bit , they're also shielding cables with two signal and one shielding wire inside .. and the 3pin connector on the end .

 

 

D

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

On 11/14/2020 at 3:30 PM, DamirGTI said:

Recrurved dizzy at least as an cheaper option , mappable ignition best .. and such engine must be run on at least 98RON petrol , the higher the better (100RON) .

 

Thx again alot for all answers Damir,

 

I understand your suggestions and totally cope with it, so I have please some questions: is there some guide how to recurve dizzy? I think wont be easy find here someone who knows how to do this...

 

If I will go in way of mappable ignition, are there some options? Or only one right way? Tell me please those, I found alot mappable ignition units, but dunno which is right to go with... also on bakerbm I saw crank pulley with trigger wheel nad sensor holder used for this mappable ignitions, some good use to spend money on this?

 

Isnt also a "solution" to rework engine to motronic?

 

thx for answer

[DamirGTI 342]

If you really decide to do that D6B head on DFZ block combination , personally i would really advise straight away going mappable ignition without the doubt (if money/budget isn't problem) .

 

Mechanical distributor will struggle with such high compression ratio , it's not as hard to modify it in fact i posted some "how to" with the pictures here in the past .. but it seems like never ending tweaking/readjusting and it's always compromise never "perfect" , hence much better going mappable/electronic ignition .

 

There's still few firms which do the distributor mods and recondition , one of them i've used in the past :

www.h-h-ignitionsolutions.co.uk

 

 

More important part is first finding someone who can do the ECU mapping (properly !) for you , so ask around who has good reputation in you're country with the aftermarket ECU mapping .

Then get in contact with them and see/ask them which system they prefer to work with , mapping session prices etc. .. DTA , Emerald , Vems , Megasquirt , Autronic etc. doesn't matter much the brand or type of the system , with which of those systems the tuner has most experience working matters most .

 

There's mappable ignition only ECU's (which are a little bit cheaper) , and of course full/complete mappable fueling and ingition ECU's . Might go with just the "ignition only" , or as you wish .

 

Possibly yes , Motronic 1.3 from 1.9 DKZ or Motronic 3.1 from Citroen ZX 1.9 might work on such modified engine hopefully without the need for "remap" .. Haven't tried that myself , will try soon in a month or two Citroen ZX engine management on one of mine high compression engines .

 

 

D

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by DamirGTI

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Hi there guys,

 

I am here with some news.... still sad news

 

I changed the tachy relay for new one and also changed a discussed damaged dizzy cable, guy nearby had one in really good state, no cracks on cable etc

 

Car still doesnt start...

 

But I noticed one change: now when I turn key to second position I hear for a sec a fuel pump to "squeel" than it stops

 

Car wasnt doing this before

[karabas 21]

This article describes tachy relay function and it's normal that the fuel pump works only few seconds and then stops.

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

8 minutes ago, karabas said:

This article describes tachy relay function and it's normal that the fuel pump works only few seconds and then stops.

I know ofc about the article, thx anyway

 

yea I also see it as some pre-pressuring of fuel system... I noticed in friends 306 rallye fuel pump doing same thing at second position of key..

 

strange is, it wasnt doing before with different pump and relay

[DamirGTI 342]

It depends on the make/brand of the tachymetric relay fitted , some prime with ignition ON others don't .

 

Bosch relays certainly don't , think the Valeo's also doesn't prime either .. anyhow it doesn't matter , if it doesn't prime with ignition ON it'll do so while cranking the engine .

 

Back to the issue , with the multimeter measure if there's signal generated from the dizzy pick up coil ..

From the "start spray test" result i would chase ignition/spark problem .. additionally , if the spark plugs are dry after cranking with no start then both , spark and fuel .

 

Wouldn't do any harm to check the compression too , just in case ..

 

Is the replacement ignition module fitted with or without the thermal paste applied ?

What brand/make is the replacement ignition module ?

 

D

Edited November 23, 2020 by DamirGTI

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

31 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

with the multimeter measure if there's signal generated from the dizzy pick up coil ..
 

Wouldn't do any harm to check the compression too , just in case ..

 

how u mean to measure it please Damir?

 

Disconnect that 3 pin connector and measure voltage between some of those pins? which ones and what values I should see?

 

 

pressure check:

 

I must buy a gauge since I dont have it, or I will spend money more likely to directly tow it to service, gonna see, if I find someone who will be willing to service it, bcs my options of solving this on the road in front of house are likely ending...

[DamirGTI 342]

1 hour ago, DamirGTI said:

Is the replacement ignition module fitted with or without the thermal paste applied ?

What brand/make is the replacement ignition module ?

 

D

 

Really interested in the answer to the above questions please .

 

D

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

As far as I remember, lack of thermal paste would not stop an engine from firing up, it will just cut out ignition if the ignition module get's too hot.

Maybe I missed something or lost track of the initial issue...  but could we already verify that there is actually fuel to the injectors?

[DamirGTI 342]

Depends for how long it was running with the module without the paste applied .

 

When holding the module in the hands while the engine runs (i did a few times just for testing purposes with my "test module") , it does heat up kinda fast thus without the paste 30min. or one hour is me thinks enough to permanently damage the module .

 

if the module overheats it fails = no spark or an weak one which will not ignite the mixture anymore ..

 

When damaged/overheated , sometimes it'll still work for a minute or two on initial cold start , but as soon as the engine heats up a bit it'll cut out or start misfiring badly .. or can be "no-go" from the cold start either , i remember old black Duceliier modules where common fail by possibly overheat or simply age degrading which created no start no matter hot or cold , interestingly with the spark present but a weak one unable to ignite the mixture .. fixed a few of 205/309's on the spot just by test replacing those Ducellier modules with the blue Bosch and it was instant start up on all those cars .

 

Fuel presence test is easy if it doesn't start , immediately after cranking with no start by pulling the plugs out and looking at them visually if they're wet from non ignited fuel , and sniff/nose test them for the smell of it too !

 

D