1,9 jetro 75kw wont start

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

Hi there guys, please give me advice with a starting issue...

 

this morning I started the car and after roughly 1 minute on idle it went off.....immediately after start I noticed some change cause the RPM wasnt going to 1500 as usually and were about 1200- 1300 than went for while to 1500 when SAD opened... than started to feel like it was loosing a petrol and shut down

Then it started again for like 2-3 secs and shut down again... did not started since that

 

Car feels like it wants to start, fires to the exhaust, so I suggest spark is going on well

 

I checked fuel pump, there is 9V when key is turned to start position, then the voltage goes slightly up to around 10V but car doesnt start

 

since car fires to the exhaust I think it will be fuel problem?

 

I think when I try to start I hear fuel pump to "squeek" more than before, for few last days I was also in feel of hearing strange sound from back of the car while driving, which I tought was a vibrating exhaust, but its possible it was a fuel pump squeeling before death?

 

I ordered already a fuel pump for 94kw bcs we are going to make d6B upgrade, so next suggestion is fuel pressure regulator??? I have here one on D6B engine, can I swap those or will be that 3bar regulator problem for 75kw?

 

Can I measure right voltages and resistance on fuel pump, hear it squeel while it will still be faulty?

 

Any other things I can check please?

 

Thx for any advice

 

 

[PhilNW 44]

Suggest check the fuel pressure with a gauge to check what the pump is delivering and the regulator is working

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

So I pulled a spark plug out of car and tried for sure if there is a spark, it is... so problem with fuel or bad distribution of sparks

 

Since I dont have pressure gauge for a petrol, I have to order some....

 

 

 

Can someone please give me OEM numbers for fuel pressure regulator for DFZ 75kw and for D6B engine? I am struggling to find relevant stuff on czech shops

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Fuel Pressure Regulators (FPRs) don't fail often IMO, and they wouldn't make a noise like you reported. The fuel pump itself seems the likely cuplrit at this stage; perhaps focus on that/one fix/one trial fix at a time.

 

Assuming nothing else has changed, e.g. firing order changed/HT leads being incorrect, as you've proved there's a spark, with air and fuel it WILL run and keep running.

 

9-10 volts at the fuel pump doesn't sound quite right, but if you swap the pump you'll be able to rule the pump out, as it may be poor voltage supply or even a wiring issue to the pump, OR a problem the other side of the pump, e.g. FPR.

 

Keep us posted.

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

2 hours ago, DrSarty said:

 

9-10 volts at the fuel pump doesn't sound quite right, but if you swap the pump you'll be able to rule the pump out, as it may be poor voltage supply or even a wiring issue to the pump, OR a problem the other side of the pump, e.g. FPR.

 

Keep us posted.

 

9V at the time of starting engine is ok according to czech manual, bcs of starter taking voltage to rotate the engine, after start and letting key go from start position it would jump to 12V....

 

anyway 0 580 464 998 fuel pump ordered, since we are going to make D6B swap in close future

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Fuel pumps are all the same 1.6 <-> 1.9 any engine code of those , except late Ph2 cars which have different pump and housing (and tank) .

 

Fuel press. reg. is however different only on 1.9 DFZ engine , it's 2.7 Bar or something like so can't remember .. all the rest 1.6 - 1.9 use 3 Bar reg. .

 

 

Common sense is look first what looks/sounds/feels odd .. in this case as you've said , fuel pump .

If the voltage is good , see if you're getting fuel @ the rail .. crank the engine and in the same time (have someone helping you) crack open the end of the fuel feed line on the rail (have some rags stuffed around to catch spillage) , just crack loosen the nut and see if it sprays out .. crude way to check if there's pressurized fuel delivered but better than guessing .

 

If there's no fuel @ the rail , or the pressure is low ... take the pump out of the tank and have a good look around , mainly on the small mushroom kinda rubber segment which connects fuel pump outlet with the pump housing - this tend to deteriorate/break apart and thus creates pressure loss and fuel volume delivery to the injection rail .

 

In fact i'd take take the pump out at once anyways , and inspect ..

 

 

D

Edited November 6, 2020 by DamirGTI

[PhilNW 44]

Try this for Bosch part numbers

 

https://ao.bosch-automotive.com/en/catalogue

 

 

[petert 588]

Volume and pressure are two different tests. To check volume, hot wire pump, disconnect fuel return from rail and place in a measuring cylinder. It should fill 540mL in 15 sec.

[Kobayashi 35 2 Cars]

On 11/6/2020 at 8:35 AM, DamirGTI said:

Fuel pumps are all the same 1.6 <-> 1.9 any engine code of those , except late Ph2 cars which have different pump and housing (and tank) .

 

Fuel press. reg. is however different only on 1.9 DFZ engine , it's 2.7 Bar or something like so can't remember .. all the rest 1.6 - 1.9 use 3 Bar reg. .

 

Not entirely - I don't know about 1.6es, but 1.9 engines with 102 / 120 / 128 hp all have their individual fuel pumps, at least OEM-wise.
However the 128 hp (jetronic) should fit 102 hp (75w DFZ jetronic) cars and can be a nice preparation for engine upgrades, as it delivers more fuel pressure.
Be aware that the 120 hp (motronic) pump did NOT fit my 102 hp car.

Fitting an 128 hp pump is exactly what I did myself when my fuel pump died on my 102 hp car. But actually my pump died slowly and always required a full fuel tank at the end. So I'm NOT guessing fuel pump here.
I'm guessing fuel filter or blocked fuel line, which would also be cheaper than a new pump, so one might try that first.

The fuel pressure regulator can also be a good idea to replace, but not because they become blocked.
DFZ fuel pressure is 2.5 bar which is no downside as long as one uses the correct injection valves and ecu.
 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Kobayashi

[welshpug 1,661]

injection pumps are the same if its a gti, notwithstanding the change from phase 1.5 to phase2.

 

pressure is regulated by the pressure regulator on the fuel rail.

[DamirGTI 342]

Bosch 0 580 464 993 and 0 580 464 998 .. either of those fits all range of the 1.6/1.9 gti injection engines , except late Ph2 cars which run different smaller pump (Bosch 0 580 314 075) in different pump housing and different fuel tank .

 

No gains to be made by fitting different pump , the above pumps supply more that enough fuel for these engines , if fact they have a flow rating for supplying much more stronger Hp engine than the highest stock 1.9 130Hp D6B (well , actually 128Hp-ish) ..

 

 

Various different ways the pump might die .. some do slowly over a period of time in which you'll certainly feel and (on older pumps) hear it , some indeed go bust literally over a night .

 

And NO ! do not replace the fuel pressure reg. just because it's "a good idea" ... as it rarely goes bad and new one costs an arm and a leg !

 

D

Edited November 8, 2020 by DamirGTI

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

12 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

Bosch 0 580 464 993 and 0 580 464 998 .. either of those fits all range of the 1.6/1.9 gti injection engines , except late Ph2 cars which run different smaller pump (Bosch 0 580 314 075) in different pump housing and different fuel tank .

 

Various different ways the pump might die .. some do slowly over a period of time in which you'll certainly feel and (on older pumps) hear it , some indeed go bust literally over a night .

 

And NO ! do not replace the fuel pressure reg. just because it's "a good idea" ... as it rarely goes bad and new one costs an arm and a leg !

 

D

 

happy to hear I ordered hopefully the right one (if no one changed the fuel tank in past)

 

lets see if that stuttering I am challenging will not dissapear with that new pump, since the new ignition amplifier didnt help at the end... but thats another topic

 

pressure regulator - I found new one from UK on ebay for round 35e, so no suggestions buying this for example? I wanted to place new since we are going to make that D6b head etc..., so I am changing whats possible and accessible

 

 

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

so I got some news,

 

I went to measure ignition coil today and i got: 0,9 ohm on side-side conectors,  7,5k ohm middle-side conectors, are those values right? I found values only for TU and XY, not XU ignition coil

 

then I tried to loosen the return hose from fuel rail, there is a pressure and gas started literally sparkle around even without cranking engine

 

and then I plugged everything on coil back, tightened the hose and tried to start the car and it started! but after 5-10 secs it went off... then I started again, immediatelly wanted to go off, I tried to throttle revs up, but engine had no response to gas pedal...it more like felt the gas was choking the engine

 

after that it did not started again :-/

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by HoRSiCZeK

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

so I took out the tachy relay and I think I found a problem?

 

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Those coil values are within specs .. but still doesn't mean it's 100% good , coils are a bit tricky to test best done under load with the oscilloscope .

 

What kind of coil is it ? square or cylindrical ?

 

Bottom part of the relay looks like was heated up , thus the flux (brown stuff) has run out from the solder joints .. probably because of the current it does tend to heat up a bit ... check the relay connector , if the connector terminals are dirty/oxidized clean them .

Some flux types are conductive , not sure about that one , but best to clean it up as it's corrosive too ... old toothbrush or fiberglass pen , and some contact cleaner (medical benzene is really good for flux cleanup) and scrape that brown layer off .

 

How does the other side of the relay looks like ? any burnt diodes or resistors ?

 

When it refuses to start , try this to determine what is missing spark or fuel :

 

Use start spray for testing purpose , spray some inside the inlet and try cranking :

 

- if it starts and runs on spray then there's spark but no fuel

- if it doesn't start nor run on spray (not even a cough) , usually no spark , or can be both no spark and no fuel (to divide that further : take the plugs out and see if they're wet .. if so then there's fuel , so lacks just the spark)

 

D

 

 

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

spark looked like on photo right after pulled from car

 

I tried plugged spark out of engine against block to see for sure there is a spark, and yes it is

sparks are quite new, I run on them about 500 km

 

I dont see any dead parts on tachy board, only "dmg" is on the other side, but if I smell it really stinks like burned electronics, it really hit me in da nose when I opened it next to the car outside

Edited November 9, 2020 by HoRSiCZeK

[DamirGTI 342]

Can't recall from memory what those lower terminals of the relay are for , but check with the multimeter if there's continuity in between the joints which leaked flux might've bridged together .  

 

It was under some higher temperature that's for sure , that's why it smells "funky" too .. i had one of those relays caught on fire before , it really does stinks awful .

 

Clean it up as even if it's not conductive it is corrosive .. clean/scrape that brown deposits around the joints , plug back in , try to start and see what happens .

 

 

D

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

I ordered already new one tachy (and the pump as said before)

 

today I placed some WD on rusty pump screws and some next day will try to pick it out

 

forget about coil type: its that longer one, cylindrical, gray color, located left side up to ignition amplifier

 

10 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

Can't recall from memory what those lower terminals of the relay are for , but check with the multimeter if there's continuity in between the joints which leaked flux might've bridged together .  

 

It was under some higher temperature that's for sure , that's why it smells "funky" too .. i had one of those relays caught on fire before , it really does stinks awful .

 

Clean it up as even if it's not conductive it is corrosive .. clean/scrape that brown deposits around the joints , plug back in , try to start and see what happens .

 

yea friend few mins ago send me your photo of that burned one

 

I will take tachy tommorow to work, we have some isopropyl etc in there, so will try to look at it with colleagues...

 

but still I ordered replacement to be sure

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

So new pump at home, old pump already taken out of the car, but I cant get the pump filter down.....!

 

Can pls someone tell me how to take pump filter down? I am pushing trying to rotate it but it doesnt even move.... I dont want to screw it...

 

Release the filter from the bottom of the housing, then the collar  - says manual, but how?

[DamirGTI 342]

Wedge body filler metal spreader or similar inside the housing groove and carefully work around to separate it/break the bond , then rotate a bit on the sides and pull down and it'll pop off .

 

 

 

D

[Telf 224 2 Cars]

ha i was about to link that myself!

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

so the pump changed, tachy relay cleaned, connectors not oxidized, car still doesnt start

 

I can hear a pump when the key is turned from the starting position very loudly (no back seats)

 

 

so next points of interest? distributor, pressure regulator?

[Telf 224 2 Cars]

are you getting fuel at the injectors?

 

did you put the right pipes on the pump? i mean you havent mixed up the pressure and return?

 

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

1 minute ago, Telf said:

are you getting fuel at the injectors?

how to check this more than by hearing of clicking? sparks looked dry, photo above in this thread...

 

I ordered new tachy realy since I do not believe fully this one

 

7 minutes ago, Telf said:

did you put the right pipes on the pump? i mean you havent mixed up the pressure and return?

no space to do that, since I did not lower the tank, there really isnt place to do this, but still I was carefull also about right connection of that 2 connectors inside housing

 

 

[HoRSiCZeK 2]

so today I measured the resistance of AFM, all numbers allright, I also tried the D6B AFM if will something happen, no change...

 

I measured throttle position sensor, looks allright

 

I can hear pump, I can hear clicking of injectors, ignition coil numbers look good, I can see spark when plug pulled out

 

so problem must be with bad timing of spark or wrong fuel pressure?

 

what about engine temperature sensor for ECU, could it make this problem?