Ma gearbox differences over the years

[dawning 11]

Ok so hopefully this will be helpful for me and others. Rebuilding my MA has been harder than expected due to parts differences.

 

First of all the big bearing has a 66mm od untill 1990 (231751) 

 

Second, the synchro rings for 3rd 4th and 5th changed from part numbers 232408 to 232452 in 1996 I'm not sure what the difference is if anyone knows please let me know.

 

Thirdly, there are quite a few different part numbers for the synchro springs. 232510 are the ones listed for cars untill 1993, then 232512 until 1994 and finally 232518. Would really like to know if these are interchangeable as a couple of mine are weak. 

 

Lastly the small bearing on the second line listed for my car is 231748 16mm wide with no circlip, which gets changed to 231790 and replaced by 2317E1 with a 17mm width and a circlip, as far as I can tell it's the outer track that is wider and should be ok I'm the earlier MA boxes.

 

Can MA gearbox experts can help?

 

Thanks

[Arthur 12]

Hi. I may have done 15 ma’s, but never really swapped parts. I know one of the 15 had no extra spacer behind the sliding rear gear (306) while the other 14 had. Found that out the hard way. Though I dropped it and put one in to find out rear wasn’t working afterwards. Did break my gearbox swap record that day though. 

[dawning 11]

That sounds like a right pain, at least you figured out what it was! My gearbox has been out for a week already and I haven't even started putting it back together. Hopefully this thread may help some in future.

 

What where the common causes for failure?

 

Mine has 107k miles gear change was a bit sloppy and differential was a bit whiney. Sloppy gear change probably just the roll pin on the lever outside the gearbox although I'm yet to see if a new pin will take up the slack fully. And diff whine well the diff gears where a bit chewed up!

Also the synchro rings look worn, not had trouble changing gears but worth replacing I think, i was pretty hard on the gearbox.

 

I should probably have just left the whole gear cluster alone would have saved me a load of headache! But hopefully it will be worth doing it properly, getting all the old oil out is quite satisfying anyway lol.

[Arthur 12]

Wel. I did al lot of them but that was because had turbo’d my 106. 300 Nm is too much for an ma. I did always replace the primary small bearings for a roller instead of ball. Can handle 10 times axial load, just a bit more noise. But that’s mostly not the problem on gti-ish cars. And I welded the diff’s. (Crownwheel) But with my current 205 I didn’t even look at ma. Although I have only 180 Nm / 150 bhp ish, went for be4r. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Arthur

[DamirGTI 342]

Differential whine is really common on MA's , you'll often find worn/pitted/cracked planetary gears and cage , synchro rings wear out and wont grip the gears anymore , gear teeth cracking ... etc. , lots of "sad words" about them written in the past if you search a bit .

 

It's really poorly made gearbox ... with s* quality parts metallurgy , and it simply can't stand too much Hp/Nm in fact in the 106 GTi it's already on the limit .

Gear ratios are also , kinda crap if you ask me ..

 

Diesel MA variants might be a little bit better ... as often diesel boxes have additionally heat treated (D) and heat treated + shoot peened (TD) internals .

 

Bearings themselves shouldn't be such an issue as long as the oil is as specified (75W-80) , at the right level/amount and serviced/changed regularly .. synchros particularly dislike other oils but Total BV 75W-80 ..

 

If you need experts advice/help , or parts , contact/pm -> Miles

 

 

D

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by DamirGTI

[dawning 11]

Damn that's harsh haha! Thanks for the tips. Yeah I've heard it said before that they are not very robust. Mines only got 84hp on a good day so hopefully it can handle it. It's an xs and has close ratio gears, think they match up quite well with the engine.

When I first got the car I got the drive shaft changed at a local garage and it was a bit notchy after that so I think they use the wrong oil, only time I've ever had any work done at a garage, this is why!

I've ordered new diff gears from eBay so I hope they are decent quality. Synchros I still need to find, getting very expensive to rebuild. The big bearing was 60 quid on its own, I would have re used it as it was totally smooth but I had already hammered the shaft out thinking I had the right one in my bearing kit. Was still tempted to re use it as it still feels fine but I did have to give it a few good wacks to get it off. 

 

[Arthur 12]

Well for an xs converting to BE might be bridge too far. You need to swap driveshafts, BE gear shifting stuff. tu-be on engine driveshaft bearing, clutch cable probably, BE under battery mount. And off course the box like 20DM12 which is nice for a racer, but IMO too short for a daily driver. I've put a 3,8 final drive in mine, and still burning rubber in 1st. 

 

Ma should be fine. I've had a 307 1.6 110 with ma too. No problems ever. I'm quite sure 307 ma's must have some stronger internals as well. And not too long final drives either because they run 17 inch. And they are 1168 kg for a hatch. 

 

Might be easy to fine a 307 ma, cheap, cause they are plenty, and dull as duck. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Arthur

[dawning 11]

Yep just trying to keep the car standard tbh. I've got solid beam mounts and grp N engine mounts and I don't like either very much! 

[dawning 11]

Anyone got an opinion on this? Looks pretty bad to me, it's the 5th gear synchros and worst of the lot, although the synchro ring looks the least worn :/ 

 

Rings I can replace gears probably not. 

 

Is it worth even replacing the rings when the gear synchros are so worn? 

[DamirGTI 342]

Seen much worse than those .. that's just usual "wear mark" for the box/gear age , no doubt that'll still work problem free many miles . 

 

Trying by hand , if you can "lock" the synchro rings on the cones of the gears then keep them , as long as they're able to "lock on the gear" and the teeth aren't excessively chewed up it'll shift up/down fine .. 

 

I have an box full of MA gear sets , synchros , shafts , diffs etc. leftovers from previous rebuilds .. if you where over here closer i could've help you with some spare parts .

 

D

Edited October 29, 2020 by DamirGTI

[Arthur 12]

If you do swap the 5th keep them together. Exchange them both. Never split up gears that have been together for years. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Arthur

[dawning 11]

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I'm thinking might not be a bad idea to replace the synchro rings to help prevent more wear in the future.

[dawning 11]

Notes from the rebuild:

 

Getting the bolts of the intermediate plate is much easier with a torque wrench the bolts are very shallow so a shallow socket is a good idea, think the where 16mm.

 

If your car was built after 1989 getting new planet gears with 14mm pin is easy before that was a 13mm pin probably not so easy.

Order in a differential friction classing from Peugeot as the are only a few quid but take a week to arrive. I didn't have time to get one.

 

New circlip for 5th gear is probably a good idea. Remove the domed washer before you pull the gear off, I learnt that the hard way! You will also want a new dowel for the 5th gear selector fork. To remove the nut on 5th select reverse with the dowel removed and push down the synchro to engage 5th, book says 120nm to tighten, or could do it on the car.

 

Used a cheap bearing puller to get the bearings off, one of the differential bearings was stubborn and I had to cut off the cage and blow torch to get it to shift. Used hydraulic press to get new bearings on.

 

The selector fork input shaft bushing seems pretty worn on mine if I did it again try and get that sorted, new roll pin took out some of the slack. The other roll pin inside the gearbox was fine I re used it.

 

Remember there is a 4th bolt holding the gearbox on that is also the exhaust mount.

 

 

There's a pdf which is pretty handy I, got the LUK kit this document is for.

The seals are made by corteco time will tell if they are any good, all the original Peugeot seals on the car ive replaced have still been doing their job!

All fits minus the big bearing, cars after 1990 should be fine. If you have the earlier big bearing you can probably re use it just don't remove it from the shaft because it might get damaged. 

 

https://www.repxpert.com/en/mediadocument/LuK-TecBr-GearBOX-PSAMA-PC/en&ved=2ahUKEwiN1vLa_ObsAhUxQkEAHefyD-kQFjASegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0dHw1JXLjDM9x_ACkNOCTA

 

There haynes workshop manual was also fairly good but worth making notes and taking photos as you go!

 

Feel free to add or ask any questions , just thought I'd share as I couldn't find any threads of people rebuilding an ma box but I'm sure there must be somewhere 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by dawning

[DamirGTI 342]

7 hours ago, dawning said:

Getting the bolts of the intermediate plate is much easier with a torque wrench the bolts are very shallow so a shallow socket is a good idea, think the where 16mm.

 

They tend to be a bit hard to undo as is , and often the torx heads strip while doing so .. as they all have threadlock on them from factory (and need threadlock upon assembly) ... i recommend heating the bolts prior undoing them to soften the threadlock , makes them release easier , good quality torx bit helps too .

Plate threads inside the bell housing are kinda soft , just a bit over the torque spec. and they'll strip so must be careful .

 

Also the 4 shallow torx bolts on the tops of the bearings , as above , heating them up a bit before releasing ... and just in case , having some spare is handy as they also tend to round/strip heads (help yourself with some better quality torx bit here as well) .

 

Rebuild data can be found on various places around , such as :

http://www.peugeot206cc.co.uk/repair-206/

http://www.peugeot206cc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13321&hilit=gearbox+rebuild&start=0

 

The early 205 Haynes manual fully covers MA rebuild as well .

 

 

D

Edited November 4, 2020 by DamirGTI

[Arthur 12]

For the bearings that can't be gripped with a puller: one can also make a small cut with a dremel, but not though. Then take a chisel and spilt it off. They are so hard they will break in two quite easily. 

[tonykf888@gmail.com 0]

Hey guys i have a 106 gti all stock i live in lebanon and i cant find a used gearbox what other peugeot or citroen cars have the same exact gearbox that i can buy and replace my old gearbox ? 

Ps: without any modification or replacing any parts .