Tarmac 205 Heaven

[Myles 5]

Having enjoyed reading through this forum for the last few weeks (having had plenty of time on my hands!) 
and having enjoyed road rallying my 19gti for over 15 years I am now wanting to improve the suspension well beyond 

that which Peugeot intended.

My current set up - front-         coil- over Bilstein tarmac shocks with standard height gravel springs 
                                                       Eccentric top mount set for max camber / castor

                                                       309 wishbones and shafts 306 hubs 

                                                        strengthened subframe and strut tops 

                                                       And not forgetting new Peugeot bushes as often as possible 

this seems to hold everything together quite nicely for now...

                                     rear-          Re built beam (twice now) solid mounts all round 

                                                        Standard bars and arb 

                                                        Bilstein 306 tarmac shocks         
                                                         10 mm spacers for a little more track 

has been fairly successful with this but most definitely where the improvement is needed most 

 

So what is the best option for road rallying both night events and closed road stages???

After much thought and research I reckon the most improvement and value for money will be had with turreting the rear and 

fitting coil overs which has been done many times before but with varying methods and equipment. I am currently talking to 

a couple of different manufacturers about shocks etc and am intending to be up and running by the time rallying starts again by 

the autumn .Mull Rally has said they will go ahead so here’s hoping! 

 

There must be a wealth of information on here and with the knowledge of the members WHAT WOULD WORK BEST??..

                 

[petert 591]

REAR:

I've got a turreted rear end but probably wouldn't do it again. You can get equally good results by fitting quality coil overs in place of the shocks and add big torsion bars and arb. You need to fabricate some adapters to get clearance however. See attachment. They're 600lb springs plus 23mm torsion bars plus 25mm ARB. You also need the Bridgecraft axles to get some neg rear camber (-3º) and toe out (+2mm). You can add track at the same time with the length of the axle. ie NO spacers.

 

FRONT:

Everyone chases negative camber but you really need heaps more positive caster. As in +5 degrees. Add -3.0º minimum camber and it will turn. You need 500lb springs.

 

TYRES:

Yoko AO50

 

Do the rear first.

Edited June 17, 2020 by petert

[welshpug 1,662]

bin the rear spacers, bigger roll bar, bigger torsion bars for the tarmac stuff, keep the skinnies for the rough.

 

modify the front hubs for camber if they are not as you will not have much camber as it sits now.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Peter, I value your opinion and your spec would be excellent I'm sure on smooth surfaces or a race track, but road rallying over here is a very different beast, yes roads, supposedly tarmac but often not, think gravel broken tarmac ruts bumps jumps cow s*it grass and uneven surfaces and you are there.

 

I run a road rally 205 and the details are

 

Bilstein fixed platform dampers 160lb springs, standard roll bar

Rose jointed bottom arms adjusted to 1.5 deg camber

Bridgecraft caster washers

 

20mm torsion bars, I would like 21's. Standard rear arb, solid mounted beam

AVO remote reservoir rear dampers, these made a big difference

 

Too much camber would make the car too nervous over the ever changing surfaces. I run 1,5 degrees. More caster does help as does a quicker ratio power steering rack.

 

Agree with what Welshpug says about the 306 hub carriers, they are far from ideal.

 

[petert 591]

lol, when I read road rallying, I did think smooth.

 

As I said though, put some effort into finding caster, as it produces camber on turn in.

[SweetBadger 94]

Really like the look of the additional spring / damper setup on the rear.

 

May consider adding that to my setup. Currently have 25mm T/Bs rear / 400lb front. Did you design the adaptor yourself? 

 

I guess for road rallying that could be a good way to stiffen up the rear and provide some adjustment if you retained the standard t/bs ?

[Myles 5]

Thanks for the replies so far you all have a great deal of know how and experience .

I for sure want the setup also to be adjustable for height and this is going to be fine tuneable with the coil overs .

The front hubs will be going to Bridgecraft before too long and also I am fabricating my own wish bones for the front but will leave that for another story! 
The rear is of more importance at the moment, I’ve had the bilsteins rebuilt twice and they are great when new but get hot and bothered after 7-8 miles less in hot conditions and leap about all over the place - entertaining for sure but  a damper operating at the same rate as wheel travel is the best way forward as I see it.

Proflex can provide standard dampers (thre way adjustable) for £750 each , they can make the right length coil over with rate to match car weights etc for £1000 a piece, or I could spend any amount on any other company’s products, I mention Proflex as they are only 20mins up the road and considered top of the range for me in expense. 
So a let’s say £500 a side coil over will get me a fully adjustable set up with easy spring rate change if required with a bit of fabrication and some thought, to end up with suspension that out performs the Proflex ?..

 

 

I have 306 gti6 rear arms to use with this which is about right for camber and toe as lift of oversteer is most desirable on unknown roads . Having to keep to standard bodywork Peter( for road events) I could end up with a     small hub spacer and have the redoubtable Bridgecraft machine the correct stub axles ( already spoken with Allen on this ). 
 
Quite happy with electric column power steering as is but maybe a quick rack in the future.

 

 

 

[welshpug 1,662]

if you aim to reduce the wheel to damper ratio you really dont need to spend lots of money on a damper, a relatively cheap gaz damper unit would work very well with the right spec, its what satchell engineering use on their 106 pushrod actuated rear ends.

[Myles 5]

Yes of course you can spend any amount of money on dampers etc and have spoken with Mr Satchell too and heard his fondness for Gaz -as you say the right set up is the key- I do believe he runs Nitrons though so you pays yer money...

Gaz are about £250 a pop if memory serves ,it comes down to adjustability / affordability/ and my ability!! 
I’m using £1000 as estimate cost of new tbs, arb and bilsteins so that’s a reasonable place to be me thinks.

 

Many thanks for your input so far✌️

I did speak to Avo but they didn’t seem too interested in making anything to suit although I could tell them corner weights , unstrung etc. Having spoken with Patrick at Quantum Racing and been impressed with their openness and what appears to be a superbly made product in the right price bracket , time will tell.So I have to make the decision and get on with it ,,,!! 
 

It has gone through my mind to sack the whole beam off and go for a much lighter fabrication but maybe that’s for another time too .

[Biggles 65]

8 hours ago, Myles said:

closed road stages

 

turreting the rear and fitting coil overs

                 

You might want to check the legality of this for stage rallies ... 

[petert 591]

GTi6 rear arms are unsuitable for competition use, as they have too much toe in. Keep standard as minimum.

[mmt 15]

Great thread. 
 

What would the optimal rear toe setting be? In, out or zero? In tour opinion It is...as there is no such thing as a higher trouth in suspension setting :-)

[petert 591]

+2 out on the smooth stuff. It does get a bit squirmish in the rear under brakes however. But that's how you know you're going fast. When coupled with +6mm out on the front, turn in is sublime.

[Myles 5]

Category 2 log book allows changes to pickup points so covers what I intend to do-have spoken with technical commissioner but will wait until everything is done including the front end. 
 

There is no such thing as smooth stuff in rallying Peter and toe out at the front well, it’s not for me! 
 

Have you had a look at the French triangulation for the rear beam? KRS do a very interesting setup but HOW does it

attach to the radius arm pins inside the beam ??? 
 

Also Chris West’s 306 maxi - anyone managed to get a good look at that????

[welshpug 1,662]

its not a maxi, his dad built it at home many years ago, I do recall having a peek at it quite a number of years ago at Rallyday and noticed some coils but no turrets from memory, but was some time ago and didnt get any pictures.

 

Guy wigley is the guy thats had a proper maxi.

[Myles 5]

Dave West?  car has  definitely got turrets and a form of triangulation to the radius arm ( has been the topic of conversation between scrutineers and is going to be required to have a cat2. log book ) but I only managed a brief glimpse myself , as to wether it’s a “ proper one “  it sure is a bloody good! 
Works cars were limited to homologated pickups even though beams could be made from any material they liked - have you seen one of those jaspers!! 
 

Hope rallying gets back on track soon and the motorsport news circuit champion gets out again, next time I’ll take some pictures 

[welshpug 1,662]

yes Dave rallied R179MEW for a good few years, I think it was converted from a road going XSI around 2006.

[Myles 5]

Had an epiphany over the weekend and bought a Honda !!!  TYPE RRR 
only kidding 

going to junk the beam though,  get rid of  20 kg and Have fully adjustable rear end .

Just need to work out the stub axle location.

[Myles 5]

 Whilst waiting for the turrets to be fabricated........

 

thought I’d make a mould for making carbon /composite bonnets.

Borrowed a mint auto bonnet of a mate and set to ,

1+2 with filleting and release wax

3 with first gel coat

 

[maxirallye 2]

Hi Myles, as you say, you can run turrets under Cat2 regs, but just a heads up that you can't run any bodywork mods, arches, wide track etc under Cat 2. (unless fully homologated, OE manufacturer panels.)

Colin Satchell will be developing a push rod rear suspension kit for the 205 over the next few months, similar to the 106 kit already on sale, which would be Cat 1 legal and give you 1 to 1 damper ratio advantage that you are chasing with turrets.

The photo is our kit fitted to a Saxo.

Regards, Tony

[Biggles 65]

2 hours ago, maxirallye said:

Colin Satchell will be developing a push rod rear suspension kit for the 205 over the next few months, similar to the 106 kit already on sale, which would be Cat 1 legal

Regards, Tony

 

Just curious Tony but has MotorSport UK confirmed in writing that this kit is legal for Cat 1 ?

[Myles 5]

I think the Satchell kit is fabulous and no doubt would do a great job - but interesting question that Biggles has just asked !? 
Not going to change bodywork for road rallies anyway but yes cat 2 regs are strange in the freedom to change somethings but not others. It’s to discourage anything too outrageous and keep cars looking standard- it does mean some turreted and Dimma  bodied cars will disappear when the current logbooks need replacement . Also a lot of ford escorts will need to be cat2 but that’s their problem! 
 

What do you reckon the new Satchell kit will cost? 

[maxirallye 2]

On 7/4/2020 at 3:27 PM, Biggles said:

Just curious Tony but has MotorSport UK confirmed in writing that this kit is legal for Cat 1 ?

Hi, we work to the bluebook regs so have never had the need to get written confirmation on any of our products.
We have numerous 106 and Saxo rally cars currently running the kit. 

All the original suspension mounting points are used, and there are no modifications or fabrication required to the shell. What do you perceive would be an issue?

[Biggles 65]

Hi Tony, thanks for the reply.  There are lots of things on lots of rally cars at the moment that aren't to Blue Book regs so just because someone is running it is no guarantee of legality.  

 

The Saxo kit caught my eye some years ago but I am led to believe questions were raised (not by me) with the MSA about its legality, specifically under K 48.4.1.  Saxo/106 are torsion bar rear suspension, the kit is coil spring.  The guidance published by the MSA when the rule was introduced is pretty clear that this would constitute a change in operating principle so not legal in Cat 1.  Hence my question.  If you have other information I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

 

[welshpug 1,662]

torsion bars are still there.