camshafts for upgraded XU10J4R

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

4 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

My bad ! misread the question pointing on the "j4r" rather than the "j4"

 

But makes no difference anyhow  , the above is all the same for these three - RFY , RFT and RFV too (D6C/DFW as well) ... only RFS is different - smaller .

 

 

D

 

 

Well there we go. You and  Calvin were right, welshpug and subsequently I were wrong. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Atlaskrukvaxt

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

3 minutes ago, petert said:

RFV is 6mm, the same as RFS. There may be a 7mm version of the RFV head, but I haven't seen one.

oh my how I love conflicting information

[DamirGTI 344]

4 minutes ago, petert said:

RFV is 6mm, the same as RFS. There may be a 7mm version of the RFV head, but I haven't seen one.

 

Confusing , says 7mm or 8mm for RFV in the above documentation , and it's the OE Peugeot book .

 

So who's right then ?!

 

D

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

I guess Petert has a phyical cylinderhead he can refer to. 

[petert 600]

Here is a pic of two inlet valves. The RFV is Ø34.6, the RFS is Ø34.1

Edited May 20, 2020 by petert

[DamirGTI 344]

Strange ...

 

Can it be that there's three variations of the same ?! like 6 , 7 and 8mm stems on them RFV's ??

 

Isn't the above by any chance RFN (EW10j4) valve rather than the RFV ?

 

 

D

[petert 600]

This supports my data, parts for a 306 135hp (restyling)

[petert 600]

2 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

Isn't the above by any chance RFN (EW10j4) valve rather than the RFV ?

 

No chance. I removed the valve from the head. The RFS valve is brand new.

[DamirGTI 344]

I see ..

 

Still a bit strange & weird though !

 

D

[petert 600]

Interestingly, there are two different intake valve part numbers for the 406 135hp. The 6mm 0948 92 (same as 306)  and 0948 75 without any sizes. It looks like a 7mm from an RFY to me. Look at the collet grooves.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by petert

[DamirGTI 344]

Indeed it does ... '92 being 6mm , and '75 7mm .

 

I wonder what's the third 8mm variant in the book data !!

 

D

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

Found these two in a pdf on some italian domain. Top left corner also says 6 mm valves here.

 

Interesting that they are running 10,95mm lift on OEM springs...

 

Edit: I found this one too with 7mm valves...

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Atlaskrukvaxt

[DamirGTI 344]

Suppose it's only the early RFV's in which they stuffed J4/RFY valves ... kinda like early RFV blocks which still had oil spray nozzles as the J4/RFY .

 

 

D

[petert 600]

If you study the Catcams catalogue closely, you'll notice they list the same part numbers for RFS and RFV engines - impossible without a spring change.

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

Hi again, time for a thread revival!

I have the RFV engine in my garage now and I've been poking at it ever so slightly. I have hurt my foot so progress is slow. However I've been doing research and I found that the 16v volvo b234 and B23 have quite similar springs, however they aren't beehive.

 

Volvo         | Peugeot

43,8/46,4      44,3       L mm

26/29            26,2       Od mm

350/590        300       N@35mm

 

I'm unsure about the volvo's max lift. Still looking into it.

 

So I'd like to know;

Do you think the cup will fit the 26mm spring even though it's not beehive?

Does anyone have the installed height of the RFV springs?

 

Thank you. 
 

Edti: Volvo T4 also has similar dimensioned valve springs

Edited August 12, 2020 by Atlaskrukvaxt

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

2 hours ago, Atlaskrukvaxt said:

Hi again, time for a thread revival!

I have the RFV engine in my garage now and I've been poking at it ever so slightly. I have hurt my foot so progress is slow. However I've been doing research and I found that the 16v volvo b234 and B23 have quite similar springs, however they aren't beehive.

 

Volvo         | Peugeot

43,8/46,4      44,3       L mm

26/29            26,2       Od mm

350/590        300       N@35mm

 

I'm unsure about the volvo's max lift. Still looking into it.

 

So I'd like to know;

Do you think the cup will fit the 26mm spring even though it's not beehive?

Does anyone have the installed height of the RFV springs?

 

Thank you. 
 

Edti: Volvo T4 also has similar dimensioned valve springs

I found some answers on catcams website.

 

The RFV valves have an installed height of 39mm and bind of 11mm lift (28mm bind height). (according to catcams catalog).
About 0,175mm between each coil should be the minimum distance to avoid coil bend this means with the 7,4 turns give 1,3mm (let's say 1,31mm). Subtracting 1,31mm from 11mm gives a max lift of 9,69mm for the RFV valve spring.

 

The B234 springs, if we count with the same installation height of 39mm and, with it's own bind height of 25mm plus a safety of 1,31 (it actually only has 6.75 turns so the real numbers is less) gives a max lift of 12,69mm

 

Note however, at max lift the RFV spring experiences 88kg of force where the B234 only experiences 65kg
 

Thoughts or comments?

 

edit: I was wrong with the 300N for 35mm on the RFV from the previous post. I based it on what I said in an even earlier post which I had read somwhere but didn't find the source for my claim again. Just ignore it. 

 

edit2: I checked and these standard b234 springs are known to run well up to 7000rpm while NA. On boost is another story.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Atlaskrukvaxt

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

So, my foot finally got good enough for me to do things, I have taken off the valve cover and removed the camshaft, what I've discovered is quite not what I expected to find.

 

First off, the engine is taken from a 1997 Peugeot 406 and is the RFV engine. 

The valve springs are not beehive as has been suggested most likely,

Outer diameter of 27,4 mm both top and bottom .

Inner diameter pretty much 20 mm.

Decompressed height of 43 mm.

6,5 turns.

Wire cross-sectional diameter of 3,7 mm.

Valve stems are 6 mm.

Estimated installed height 35,2 mm

Bind height is not sure but roughly calculated gives 6,5x3,7=24,05 mm

[petert 600]

6 hours ago, Atlaskrukvaxt said:

So, my foot finally got good enough for me to do things, I have taken off the valve cover and removed the camshaft, what I've discovered is quite not what I expected to find.

 

First off, the engine is taken from a 1997 Peugeot 406 and is the RFV engine. 

The valve springs are not beehive as has been suggested most likely,

Outer diameter of 27,4 mm both top and bottom .

Inner diameter pretty much 20 mm.

Decompressed height of 43 mm.

6,5 turns.

Wire cross-sectional diameter of 3,7 mm.

Valve stems are 6 mm.

Estimated installed height 35,2 mm

Bind height is not sure but roughly calculated gives 6,5x3,7=24,05 mm

Interesting. What sort of valve stem seal does it run?

 

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

Hi PeterT, I believe these are the combined seals/seats that RFVs come with.

 

I'm planning on buying one catcams PAC-S90019 valve spring to try out which should have a max lift around 12 mm if my calculations are correct. 
35,2 mm installed height 

21,2 mm solid height

3,8 mm wire diameter

21,2 / 3,8 gives 5,57 coils

5,6 x 0,1775 = 0,99..mm ~ 1mm 
21,2+1 = 22,2 mm 

35,2-22 = 13 mm max lift

factor of safety 10% (0,9)

gives 11,7mm max lift

[petert 600]

Yep, that's definitely the seal type, but I've never seen them with straight springs.

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

Hello again!

The other day I got my hands on the catcams s90019 valve springs, they are less than half a millimeter wider than the original (not beehive) springs in the RFV engine. In the picture the -19s are on the right and OEM on the left.

 

Furthermore, I spoke today with my catcams dealer and he informed me that the 4903106 camshafts have a note attached to them saying that RFS engines may need deeper valve pockets cut to run with a safe piston clearance of 1.5mm.

This note was not present in regards to the RFV engine. The (intake) camshaft has, according to catcams own website, a lift of 1.75mm @TDC while the original camshaft has a lift of 1.27mm (according to PeterT's website) and PeterT's stage 2 is 1.651mm @TDC. 

Is valve to piston clearance going to be an issue?

Am I overthinking this and should just put a thicker gasket or what?

 

Best wishes, T.

 

 

[petert 600]

I'd be measuring the available clearance before proceeding. They're tight.

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

Thank you for your reply Peter!

I did some very rudimentary measurements by measuring the height from the camshafts resting points between two valves to the hydraulic lifter, first with the valve touching the piston @TDC 

and after with the valve pulled back up. Results were 5.9mm while touching and 3.3mm iirc while retracted. Removing 1.5mm for safety leaves 1.1mm which is way less than the lift@TDC of the OEM camshaft on your website so I don't trust these results. I'll try some more accurate way tomorrow. 

Thanks for reading. 

 

[kutija 1 1 Cars]

Regarding 6mm and 7 mm valve steams in xu10j4r could be that those with 135 hp that were direct injection had 7mm valve steams as there was not cooling to the valves from port injection so they put 7mm thick valves instead of 6mm for longevity.

[Atlaskrukvaxt 5]

Here's the measurements from the valve -piston clearance measuring I did.

 

First is intake side and please forgive the ghetto setup.

 

First pic is with the valve retracted as far as possible,

and second is touching the piston.

 

I did the measurement a few times and got about 2.05-2.1mm clearance. I did this without any spring installed so I had to manually pull up the spring to get the retracted position.

 

Following is the exhaust side,

First pic is retracted,

Second is touching the piston

 

I read this as 5.2mm clearance on the exhaust side. I feel like this is a lot?

 

This would mean that with the catcams -3106 I'd have a valve-piston clearance (on the intake side) of about 0.3-0.35mm with this current gasket which I believe is the original 0209T9 judging from its uncompressed thickness (1.4mm). 

 

I guess it is too tight.

Thoughts?

Edited January 4, 2021 by Atlaskrukvaxt