1.6 Ph 1.5 Starting Issues

[Foxyn 2]

Hi all,

I’ve owned my 205 Gti  (‘89 ph1.5) for around 15 years although I’ve only driven it for a total of 6 months in that time. I’ve been on the forum for many years but this is my first post. The car was garaged about 5 years ago with the intention of restoring it but for various reasons this didn’t happen. I’ve recently decided now is the time to do something with it but having trouble getting it started. It was turning over but wouldn’t fire. Initially I did the following:

 

New battery

New coil

New plugs

New HT leads

Replaced dizzy low tension lead

New tachy relay

 

The car still wouldn’t run so I checked the voltage at the fuel pump. It was around 7V which seemed low to me. When I pulled the pump I found the rubber boot that holds it in place had turned to liquid and the strainer that clips on the bottom of the housing had turned brittle and fallen into the tank (pictures attached) - I’m assuming some reaction with stale fuel in the tank?

 

I tried and failed to source a phase 1/1.5 fuel pump housing so as a temporary measure I cleaned up the existing and replaced the actual pump with one that I removed years ago that worked at the time. I drained the tank and removed the debris and refitted the pump together with fresh fuel.

 

I now had 10V at the pump and could hear the pump running but the car would still not start. I opened the union on the fuel rail to find it was bone dry. I opened the banjo on top of the fuel filter - bone dry, but on opening the lower banjo fuel ran out. So I changed the fuel filter assuming it was blocked, although unlikely, but this hasn’t improved the situation. I’ve also checked the main fuel pipes between the pump and the filter are not blocked.

 

One thing that doesn’t sound quite right is when I stop cranking the engine, I can hear a trickling noise coming from the pump for around 5s or so. I don’t recall ever hearing this before when the car ran. Could this be a hint to what is wrong?

 

Can anyone suggest where to investigate next please? The only thing I can think of is that the old pump doesn’t have enough oomph to overcome the fuel filter resistance and the trickling sound is the fuel running back into the tank.

 

Any help is much appreciated - it’s been a frustrating few weeks!

 

Neil.

 

[DamirGTI 342]

Did you test the replacement pump on the bench by connecting it directly to the 12V ? does it spin freely/fast as it should ? ..

 

I've "lost" (but then i open them and clean and reseal back) 3 perfectly good spare pumps just because the pump gear mechanism sized up from stale fuel .. even small amount of fuel varnish deposits on the gear rollers will lock the electric motor within the pump like concrete as tolerances are really tight in the roller cell assembly on the bottom of the pump .

 

D

[Foxyn 2]

Thanks for the reply Damir. I tested it when I removed it many years ago, but from what you are saying, it sounds like the small amount of fuel left in it could be the issue.

 

I think I’ll get a new pump unit which should prove if that is the issue. The only problem them is finding a replacement housing as I can only find the later phase 2 type online and these have a different electrical connector as far as I can tell. I’d rather not cut/modify the loom if I can avoid it.

 

If anyone has a phase 1/1.5 fuel pump housing they would be willing to part with or knows where I might source one please let me know.

 

Thanks,

 

Neil.

 

[jackherer 543]

It's ethanol in fuel that is doing this. I helped Jeremy on here resurrect his 205 a while ago and that's exactly what his pump was like.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

15 hours ago, Foxyn said:

 

 

I now had 10V at the pump and could hear the pump running but the car would still not start. I opened the union on the fuel rail to find it was bone dry. I opened the banjo on top of the fuel filter - bone dry, but on opening the lower banjo fuel ran out. So I changed the fuel filter assuming it was blocked, although unlikely, but this hasn’t improved the situation. I’ve also checked the main fuel pipes between the pump and the filter are not blocked.

 

One thing that doesn’t sound quite right is when I stop cranking the engine, I can hear a trickling noise coming from the pump for around 5s or so. I don’t recall ever hearing this before when the car ran. Could this be a hint to what is wrong?

 

 

Just thinking about this, could you have perhaps mixed up the fuel pipes at the pump end, so the pump is sending fuel up the return line?

If this was the case the pump would dead end against the regulator. The trickling noise could be fuel draining back once you turn the pump off?

 

Before jumping to a conclusion and fitting a new pump I would do some more testing. First take the pipe off at the pump, fit a short length of pipe from the pump into a bottle, run the pump and see if it is delivering.

[Foxyn 2]

Fuel lines are definitely connected up correctly. I marked them when I changed the pump years ago. And just to make sure, I disconnected the feed pipe at both ends and blew down it. After cranking, if I remove the flow pipe at the pump, fuel runs out under pressure, so I’m fairly sure it is moving fuel, but maybe just not with sufficient flow? I’ll do as you suggest this afternoon Tom and see what happens.

 

Does the regulator only open once the engine is running and there is negative pressure in the inlet manifold, meaning the fuel pump initially primes against a closed regulator when the engine is cranking?

 

Cheers.

 

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

The regulator is a pretty simple spring loaded spool, when fuel against the flow side reaches 3 bar it lifts the spool to allow excess flow back to the tank and maintain 3 bar.

It then has a vacuum reference on the other side, the function meaning that the 3 bar fuel pressure is referenced to the inlet vacuum, so when the inlet is at 0.5bar vacuum, instead of you having effectively 3.5bar pressure, the regulator still supplies 3 bar to the injectors.

What I don't understand is why the top of the fuel filter is dry. Probably next step is to sort a pressure gauge to check what the filter and hence the injector rail is seeing.

[Foxyn 2]

Thanks for the explanation, makes sense.

 

Like you say, the fact the filter is full of fuel, but nothing in the rail just doesn’t make any sense. I ordered a new pump last night which should be here tomorrow/Wednesday so that may help rule out a few things.

[Foxyn 2]

Bit of an update...

 

I fitted a new pump and a length of hose onto the outlet to check it was pumping fuel. It was, but not at the flow rate I’d necessarily expect to see. Reconnected the hoses and tried to start the car and it was very close to firing. It caught a few times and ran for a second or two. Opened the fuel rail union and it was still bone dry!

 

The pump is still making the trickling/surging noise after cranking. My latest theory is that the rubber connection between the top of the fuel pump and the plastic housing is not sealing properly, allowing the fuel to leak back into the tank and therefore not allowing sufficient pressure to build in the system. This is supported by the fact that when I removed the pump the top of it was covered in fuel. Does that seem logical?

 

I think I need a replacement fuel pump enclosure, which seem to be impossible to find unfortunately.

 

 

[jackherer 543]

7 hours ago, Foxyn said:

The pump is still making the trickling/surging noise after cranking. My latest theory is that the rubber connection between the top of the fuel pump and the plastic housing is not sealing properly, allowing the fuel to leak back into the tank and therefore not allowing sufficient pressure to build in the system. This is supported by the fact that when I removed the pump the top of it was covered in fuel. Does that seem logical? 

Yes an internal leak would make sense.

 

The phase two housing just uses normal hose from the pump to the top of the housing so you might need to bite the bullet and change the electrical connector if you can't find a good early housing.

[Foxyn 2]

That’s what I’m thinking. Does the Ph2 housing fit into a ph1.5 tank?

 

And does anyone happen to know what kind of connector the Ph2 uses? Looking at the ones on EBay, it looks like a Bosch EV1 type but with an offset locating tab?

 

Neil.

[jackherer 543]

AFAIK yes but I think you need to make sure you get the baffling to match the pump housing or something otherwise you'll get fuel surge on corners with 1/3rd tank remaining.

 

Yes the plug is a Bosch EV1 type AKA Junior Power Timer, you may need to use an un-keyed connector and trim the locating tab off.

[Foxyn 2]

Thanks for that, very helpful.

Is the baffle the plastic sleeve in the tank that the pump fits inside? If so the old fuel has destroyed this too! Not having much luck here.

 

 

[jackherer 543]

Yes the plastic sleeve thing, I think it's different between phase 1 and 2.

[DSYKES5500 22]

Have you tried Dave at Classic Peugeot Spares?  If not he may be able to help you out.

 

classicpeugeotspares.co.uk

[Foxyn 2]

I did email Dave a few weeks ago. I’ll give him a call and see if he can help. Will try Dean at Peugeot Parts Specialist as well.

 

Thanks all.

 

Neil.

[Foxyn 2]

Just to conclude this in case anyone has a similar issue in the future, it turned out to be the rubber connection between the pump unit and the housing not sealing properly allowing fuel to drain back into the tank and preventing the system pressurising.

 

I sourced some replacement parts from Dave at Classic Peugeot Spares and today she started and ran for the first time in about 5 years. A good feeling!

[DamirGTI 342]

.. the rubber "mushroom" bastard !

 

Wonder why they used such an odd stepped rubber connection piece in the first place  , when an piece of in-tank submersible fuel hose would do just fine .. as they did on the Ph2 pumps .

 

D