Base 205 Suspension Lift Camber

[Davetouch 3]

So I have a project car going strong, and have hit a bit of a technical hitch. I knew it was coming but delayed addressing it anyway 

 

There is lots of info on here (and very good stuff too) about suspension when lowering 205s and how to avoid excessive negative camber, but what to do if you've done the stupid thing and raised it so have massive positive camber... Note I've lifted it by fitting 405 diesel struts/springs/shocks. Nothing else yet.

The rear is fine obviously, but the front now needs a load more negative. I'm not sure that 309 arms would give enough - also my car is a non-GTI so has the TCA setup. Are the 309 lower track arms also ~10mm longer than the 205s or is that only the GTI wishbones? I'm not concerned too much about handling and addressing the finesse of bump and rebound as this isn't a track car or anything remotely similar. I just want it back to a neutral setup so it drives normally.

 

Any thoughts on this other than the 309 arms? And will base 309 TCAs also be longer than 205 TCAs? Any help greatly appreciated, and apologies for not conforming to the 'lowered GTI' stance 

 

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I believe 309 tca’ are longer, you may also need the arb? And ideally the driveshafts. 

 

Another option is that I can modify your hubs to give you any camber you require. 

 

 

 

 

[Ozymandis 97]

309 TCAs` are definetly longer, also the ARB "mushroom bushes" in the (genuine)  arms are solid and a lot firmer than 205 ones which have voids in them.

I use genuine 309 bushes in standard 205 arms and they improve longevity considerably.

 

A lot of 309 arms come up cheap on fleabay, no one much, has got a base model 309 these days. I recently got 6 arms for £30 and chopped them up to recover the bushes to use on diesel vans. Sorry bout that  I would have done You a pair.

 

[Davetouch 3]

Haha no worries - I'll get some 309 TCAs and I think I'll need the shafts anyway due to the extra droop. I'll PM you about the hubs, Allan! Anymore ideas anyone has would be very welcome.

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

I think the other way would be to machine the lower arms and weld a threaded boss in to take a rose joint, you could then adjust to get the camber where you wanted it,

 

Driveshaft wise I would look at if you can use a spacer between cv joint and wheel bearing to give enough plunge in the inner joint.

 

What are you doing with it? Trials or some sort of safari trip?

[Davetouch 3]

I'd guess driveshaft spacers would cost just as much as new driveshafts anyway - to custom make the bearing locating chamfers and either splines or a machined locating flange onto the driveshaft. I'll consider the machined lower arms and rose joints though.

 

And more of a safari type thing. Its originally a Trio SX with the mighty TU1 with 55hp. This ain't racing anywhere  Hence why I'm not worried about performance handling...

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

The spacers don't need to be nearly as complicated as you describe. Have a look at the cv joint next time you have it in bits and you will see what is needed.

[calvinhorse 870]

The TU engine 309 driveshafts you’ll need will be extremely rare now, I know they exist but can’t see there being many

 

nothing wrong with a spacer and like Tom says they’re relatively easy to make, Bridgecraft an make them, I have hubs and driveshafts we can measure up but you’d have to let us know the width of the spacer you require 

[Wallby 39]

309 tu driveshafts are readily available from Misterauto. I had some not so long ago and they have lasted well!

[calvinhorse 870]

On 6/28/2019 at 7:52 AM, Wallby said:

309 tu driveshafts are readily available from Misterauto. I had some not so long ago and they have lasted well!

I bet they’re a big seller, I had an argument with about 10 people on here years ago who said tu 309s didn’t exist, the only reason I knew they did was because I saw one in a scrap yard, never seen another to this day 

[Jer309GTi 3]

I'm 99% sure I have an o/s driveshaft (long one) for a 309 TU new still in the box, I will check and if you would like it for a donation to the forum, drop me a PM if you do  

[Davetouch 3]

2 hours ago, Jer309GTi said:

I'm 99% sure I have an o/s driveshaft (long one) for a 309 TU new still in the box, I will check and if you would like it for a donation to the forum, drop me a PM if you do  

If you do that'd be amazing yes! Unfortunately my PMs aren't working at the moment but please let me know if you find it.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

If you have spring clearance to the inner arch and your wallet isn't too keen on other options you could slot the stop mount holes in the direction you want and move the top mount inwards.

[Batfink 201]

On 7/12/2019 at 10:40 AM, Henry 1.9GTi said:

If you have spring clearance to the inner arch and your wallet isn't too keen on other options you could slot the stop mount holes in the direction you want and move the top mount inwards.

Far too simple lol

 

[Davetouch 3]

I realise I didn't update this - it now sits on the 405 diesel springs/shocks with 309 lower TCA and 309 driveshafts. I found that the ARB being tight was pulling back on the arms and pre-tensioning the whole suspension system which made it drive really weirdly (twitchy and wandering a lot). It now runs with a loosened ARB so its secure but without any tension in it (at least in the fore/aft direction, obviously roll still does have something in it) and this means it drives mostly fine. It has about 0-1deg of positive camber which isn't great so I hope to lower it down by maybe 5mm to straighten this out a little while also helping the driveshafts as they're at stupid droop levels. This may be done by returning to 205 springs and strut spacers .

 

For now though it is OK it just has horrific bump steer. I wonder if its possible to rotate the track rod end tapered seats on the hubs by 180 degrees as that would probably help.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Davetouch

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

The taper is machined into the steering arm, which are integral with the hub. One way to do it would be drill the taper out to a parallel hole, then change the track rod ends to a rose joint and allow you to alter the steering arm position up and down to improve the bump steer. You would need to make some parts on a lathe, or have them made.

[welshpug 1,657]

I would do some measuring with a rod end and a bolt and spacers/washers before committing to anything permanent like drilling the taper out.

 

It used to be a common thing with lowered 106's to swap from the standard balljoint and place them underneath the steering arm, However this did not actually make it better, if anything actually worse!  (106 has a high mounted rack and top mounted track rod ends)

 

when I helped build some inverted struts for a friends 106 rallye rally car we built them up with standard geometry minus 10mm, and ended up with a few spacers to place the joint in almost exactly the oem position, and when Dave from Satchell Engineering checked the geometry and bump steer we had luckily nailed it and got no bump steer!