Peugeot 205 1.9 8v starting issues, same old story.

[Rutia 0]

Hi guys and gals

 

I've been having issues attempting to get my engine in fighitng shape again after sitting up for nearly two years, before sitting it up it was running until one day it was taken for a drive and all of a sudden the car lost power when stopping at a set of traffic lights, this was on an incline, however i managed to restart the engine and getting going again before coming up to another set of lights at this point the engine completely stopped responding. it was at this time we decided to sit the car to one side as winter was coming! after coming back to the project recently we changed the belt as the condition was well lets say holy and not in a religious way, belt changed and timing set as per dowels, attempted to get the engine to fire at this point and nothing, fuel and spark was checked, we have a weak wire going from the ign amp -> coil + which we then re taped to fix a lack of spark issue we had, fuel is getting to the rail and working as it should.

 

Here's a list of things changed/checked

 

1. New Distributor (Mapco replacement)

2. New Tachometric relay (Old one works same)

3. New Spark plugs ( Spark getting to each plug)

4. New Coil

5. Checked Fuel pump is priming and injectors pulsing

6. New Timing belt / Timing setup ( Using dowels but also making sure head of cam aligns with TDC)

7. All fuses are present and do not seem effected by any shorts

 

It's a 1984 1.6 converted to a 1.9 D6B Xu9ja by the previous owner so it's pretty much running a lot of original parts from the earlier models

 

i've attached a video of the engine currently attempting to fire and this is with the throttle being fully pressed and also the distributor being full advanced on the turn (Anything but fully advanced and the engine doesn't wanna know about it)

 

 

 

 

[Callum 13 1 Cars]

May not be related but my car wouldn't start from cold and gradually started to run very lump and rough when it was running and that was due to the temp sensor 

[Rutia 0]

Thanks for the suggestion callum, Was it the sensor that had gone or the wiring, did you manage to sort it in the end?

[soundguy 13]

You've probably checked these out already but if not:

 

Does the battery hold charge and output like it should?

Is the wiring to/from the shunt box OK, and is the shunt box itself OK? (ie, corrosion on the different connectors etc)Is the rotor inside the distributor cap OK?

Is the coolant temp sensor OK?

 

Have you still got the original headlight earth blocks in? Might be worth removing those and upgrading the wiring and attaching them directly to the earth mounts.

 

If you haven't changed the ignition amp, they're currently £28.88 apparently incl VAT + delivery:

https://www.motor-doctor.co.uk/products/668862-switch-unit-ignition-system

 

 

 

 

 

[Rutia 0]

Hi soundGuy

Amplifiers been changed three times with same results, which isn't an issue as spares are always handy

battery is all good and holding, brand new battery so i've ruled that out thankfully.

As it's a 1984 i think most of the wiring is original with the odd bits and bobs cut out by previous owners, this is obviously concerning as a car of this age is gonna be flakey if that stuff is still original, i'll check all earths just to be 100% sure.

And the Coolant temp sensor i've just bought one of these today as i'll swap that over aswell to rule that out.

 

i'll keep the post updated as i go, i've contacted an Auto electrician too just to come out and have a gander at the wiring, Thanks for all your suggestions still it's very much appriciated

 

Regards

Craig

 

 

[soundguy 13]

Seems like there's not a great deal more to inspect other than SAD and AFM. You mention keeping the amps as spares - was at least one of them a new Bosch part?

[steve@cornwall 100]

Haas a similar problem a few  years ago, was taken to a local "specialist" and eventually returned, still broken but with a new cam belt, plugs, leads and a good second hand distributed. Cost a few hundred quid to get nowhere!

Turned out the rotor arm was slipping as the retainer was worn.

[Rutia 0]

unfortunately none of the amplifiers are bosch ones, i think the original bosch part was discarded long before i go ahold of the vehicle.

I've inspected the AFM and it seems to be working as usual and not an issue, Tested all of the connections going to the AFM to make sure signal is getting to it so, as for the SAD being a bish to get at i've been holding off toying with that at the moment

The distributor i have seems to have some play in it, as if i had the cap off and the arm i could freely wiggle the rotor arm and wiggle it lets say 3mm - 4mm either side of it's standard position, i believed this to be standard though as it's the mechanism in side the dizzy that seems to wiggle and not the arm itself, is this as it should be or is there more play and should i be worried about it?

At this moment in time i'm lost for ideas and it's at the clutching a straws and replace every part that's not been done and unfortunately that's never really worked for anyone Going insane over this.

[soundguy 13]

Sorry, my distributor knowledge is really poor, but if you're going to get to the bottom of this you either have to bite the bullet and find a place/guy who knows 205s inside out and pay them to thoroughly ID the issue.

 

If you're going to press on you have to get stuck in with some major disassembly, and get the distributor properly inspected. Then you can also get at the SAD seeing as it's down and under there.

 

Once you get used to stripping things down its not the bitch of a job you think it is really - battery out, AFM out, air cleaner housing+ducts out - this will give you room to work.

 

So:

 

Bosch amps are very strongly recommended over other types

The distributor needs to be inspected

The rotor and arm needs to be inspected

The SAD needs to be checked/tested

 

You're in Coventry - have you thought about approaching forum members in your region who will help as a paid job, who can install known good parts one by one to ID the issue? This is what I would be doing if you feel that you're getting nowhere.

[Rutia 0]

Hey Sound thanks for another great post, will be checking those out this next four off and following that i'm going to check the ignition wiring to make sure signal is getting where it is.

if that fails and i'm still nowhere i'll happily give £200 to the first person that comes and gets her started do you know of anyone off the top of your head in the area that could possibly assist?

 

Thanks again pal

[Richie-Van-GTi 71 2 Cars]

Check the fuel pressure

[soundguy 13]

7 hours ago, Rutia said:

i'll happily give £200 to the first person that comes and gets her started do you know of anyone off the top of your head in the area that could possibly assist?

The only thing I can suggest is maybe go through members profiles on the site and find someone who is nearby, see if they've done plenty of fault finding - or drive the 2h45min to Ipswich and wave some money at jackherer.

[Rutia 0]

Thanks rich, Testing that later today so i'll let you know how that goes

 

I'll have a creep through some profiles and see what i can come up with wish i could but i'm lacking a trailer/ A-frame for that -.-

Thanks guys again

[Rutia 0]

Fuel Pressure is holding good at 2.5/3 bar and injectors are firing as per.

So getting spark/fuel and timing is correct, compression is good as reads starting at cyl 1

 

cyl 1, 170

cyl 2, 168

cyl 3, 170

cyl 4, 180

Is it possible that the wiring could be causing this?

 

SAD tested and working correctly, ECU temp sensor replaced and working, Timing checked over and over and moved a tooth out eitherside to rule out a tooth out issue

 

Completely at a loss, one thing to Note is injectors are firing and yet when taking out the plugs after cranking for a few seconds they are dry as a bone, This topped with exhaust backfiring?

 

If there's anyone in the midlands area viewing this and wants a challenge there's money waiting for the first person to get it going/ correct  diagnostic on it

[DamirGTI 342]

Check/verify that you have ign. leads on the distributor cap connected like this :

 

 

D

 

[Rutia 0]

Thank Damir, All Checked and verified, rotor arm is pointing at no1 when p1 is at TDC.

 

However when attemping to start the car the dizzy would have to be full advanced before the car even tries to fire, but this bring the rotor arms firing point past the node on the cap when it fires, it's  a strange issues thats for sure.

Thanks for the reply tho pal always greatful for another pair of eyes on it.

[DamirGTI 342]

I see .. well , if the camshaft timing is 100% good and done , i'd have a look inside the dizzy for loosen or broken spring (the "weaker" initial spring precisely)

 

 

No need to dismantle the whole dizzy mechanism , but do take the dizzy off the engine as you'll need to turn the shaft manually to be able to see both springs inside and they're nylon stop pegs .

 

There's an cap on the dizzy body which you just need to prise off with an screwdriver , swing the dizzy shaft on either side an you'll see the springs inside (use an flashlight) - two of them , one thinner wire spring with more tension and one thicker with less tension .. the thinner one is the initial spring ie. it governs the advance till it stretches then the thicker one takes on .. see if they're both in place within the mechanism secured on the nylon pegs on the each side , if one of them slipped off the nylon peg or broken off it'll be that ..

 

Some shots of the dizzy internals :

 

 

.. or if in doubt , try an known good spare dizzy if you have one .

 

D

[Rutia 0]

Havn't got a spare unfortunately, inspecting the dizzy it seems 100% fine, it's a brand new aftermarket dizzy by MAPCO using original flyleaad (Swapped over from new one) during testing to get it started so i know it's not the fly lead itself atleast the dizzy side of the lead.

Giving me nightmares and a constant headache now nothing worse than having a beauty of a car and not being able to get her started

[ATK 140 1 Cars]

Fuel pressure regulator on the rail? I changed mine and it cured all starting issues when cold

[Rutia 0]

Thanks for the Reply ATK, Tested fuel reg and i was getting a solid 3 bar to the rail and holding, Was run on fresh fuel too on an inline pump taking the pump/fuel out of the equation too

[Richie-Van-GTi 71 2 Cars]

18 hours ago, Rutia said:

Havn't got a spare unfortunately, inspecting the dizzy it seems 100% fine, it's a brand new aftermarket dizzy by MAPCO using original flyleaad (Swapped over from new one) during testing to get it started so i know it's not the fly lead itself atleast the dizzy side of the lead.

Giving me nightmares and a constant headache now nothing worse than having a beauty of a car and not being able to get her started

I think the answer is in this statement, AFTERMARKET dizzy. lots of people have reported issues with aftermarket dizzys, also you state it fires when moved right out of position. You 100% firing order is correct? No1 is closest to gearbox in pugs

[Rutia 0]

i think you might be right richie, bloody mapco dizzy cost me 100£ and it's never felt right, bloody hopeless thing!

 

one thing to mention tho, when running the car the last time it was sat up, it died at a set of lights after a 4 min drive, during this drive the ht lead on the coil was connected to the coil however the insulation rubber cap wasn't correctly fitting, under inspection once the car was finally brought back and checked over it turned out the coil was arcing to the water pipes/surrounding areas  during the drive, could this affect anything?

 

Everything buy the loom/ starter has been changed starter seems to be working correctly and with no issues at all, it seems strange really and i wish i could just figure it out, there's no decent auto electrians around the area that want to tackle the job either.

 

that's what i've currently got the firing order set to as per checking TDC etc etc.

 

Thanks for the comments guys you've been really helpful in helping crossing stuff off the " IT COULD BE F*CK'D" List

 

If there's anyone in the area with a spare Dist that i could try briefly i would def be a happy chap.

 

[Rutia 0]

Update on this one if anyone is interested, There's an issue still present however changing out the mapco dizzy(After taking the mapco dizzy apart it was discovered the internals of the dizzy are very cheap and tacky.) with a second hand bosch one made the car respond a lot better and spot on, the car will start when cranking and die shortly after starting.

it feels like there's fuel starvation in play now, but since it starts when cranking and then dies a second or two later (Engine sounds very nice, no timing issue) is there a chance that the wiring could be causing this issue? and if so could anyone point me in the direction of how best to fault find.

 

The car will run a second or two longer when easy start is sprayed directly into the manifold, this makes me think the injectors are firing the initial burst on crank but as soon as the keys dropped to the on position the injectors stop firing thus starving it of fuel (Sound plausable? )

Thanks for the help so far lads, owe you all a pint!

[jackherer 543]

That sounds like it could be a tachymetric relay fault, it's triggered initially by the starter cranking signal then the pulse from the distributor keeps it running after that.

[Rutia 0]

Thanks Jack i'll attempt to swap out the relay tomorrow and give it another go, As standard it came fitted with the old old 1984 ph1 T-relay, That was ripped out and rewired just prior to the car sitting -.- due to corrosion of it's age that is, so hoping it's all been re-wired correctly by the dolts that did it

 

Does this look about right for wiring? -.- wire colors however obviously being early 80s were a little different from what it says on the image. but does it seem right? i'll have to do a ohm reading to make sure i guess but you'll have better knowledge than i off the top of your head