MB6 gearbox, the compact BE4/6

[SRDT 182]

Years after the BE3/6 PSA is producing a 6 speed BE and this time it's a proper compact design that is as short as the 5 speed designed in the late 70'.

https://site.groupe-psa.com/powertrain/en/boites-de-vitesses/

 

 

For now the ratios are good... for a diesel.

 

 

Can you bolt a good old BE3 bellhousing? Probably ; but for a GTI you also need custom 3/4/5/6 gears.

[Biggles 65]

As fitted to the 308 with the 130bhp 1.2L Turbo gasoline engine - 170lbft @ 1750rpm (or 24.1 bar BMEP if you're that way inclined).

[SRDT 182]

Supposed to handle up to 250 n.m (184 Lbft) just like the BE4.

The diff and crown wheels are regular BE4 parts but no one knows how strong the new gears and syncros really are.

 

[Biggles 65]

For amusement value I looked at the ratios - gap from 2nd to 3rd is huge as kind of expected for a road 'box - but the amusing bit was that with the shortest F/D listed for it, with my 8500 rpm redline, it would gear me for a cool 231mph (not that I need 6 speeds, it just New Year's Eve and there's duck all on TV).

[SRDT 182]

The "E1" ratios are like the old "N" ratios with a shorter 2nd and a 6th added, think of the 205 D-turbo or Gentry with an overdrive. The Mi16 use the "P-PK": same as the "N" but with the long 1st of the GTI "T" ratios.

 

It is better than the long ratios of a 309 or 405 turbo diesel (L-LK) but that's about it.

 

 

You can see here the "E1" vs "L-LK" with a similar final ratio.

The shorter 2nd reduce the gap from 1st to 2nd but gives you a 2nd to 3rd gap similar to the "L-LK" one albeit at a lower speed.

 

[Arthur 12]

Hmmmm. Site says it's for dw engines but the starter is at the rear? Fiche says EB engine. Doesn't fit TU, right? Not that anyone would want it with diesel like eco s*it ratios. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Arthur

[Arthur 12]

It probably won't fit. And if it does the clustered 3-4 gears must be cut. But with a 3 and 4 from BE3/6 and 5 and 6 made from 4's and 5's from BE, it could make decent ratio's for road use. Lot of effort though. 

 

Fd 

3,57 from MB6

 

BE4           BE4          BE3/6       BE3/6       MB6          MB6          

0,822

0,951

1,15

1,41

2,05

3,455

Edited January 3, 2019 by Arthur

[SRDT 182]

The bellhousing has the EP/DV/EB pattern, I don't know how close it is from the TU pattern but it's not the same. Also unlike the BE it's not part of a casing set so you can order it alone.

 

 

If you use a long final drive like the 19x72 or 19x75 the 1st and 2nd are not so far from a GTI gearbox with a 14x62 ; that means with a realy short 3/4/5/6 gear kit you could keep the primary shaft as is and also find plently of shorter fd.

 

For now you won't find many cheap MB6 at the breakers so it's not really cost effective.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

On 1/1/2019 at 2:52 PM, SRDT said:

The "E1" ratios are like the old "N" ratios with a shorter 2nd and a 6th added, think of the 205 D-turbo or Gentry with an overdrive. The Mi16 use the "P-PK": same as the "N" but with the long 1st of the GTI "T" ratios.

 

It is better than the long ratios of a 309 or 405 turbo diesel (L-LK) but that's about it.

..

 

You can see here the "E1" vs "L-LK" with a similar final ratio.

The shorter 2nd reduce the gap from 1st to 2nd but gives you a 2nd to 3rd gap similar to the "L-LK" one albeit at a lower speed.

 

How do you get from a gearbox code to that P-PK / N / L-LK codes?

I'm looking for the ratio's of a 20TA48 and find these codes in service box, if I check the model and type of the car/box. (406 coupe 2.016v BE3R) 

- BE3/5N2 - BE3/5S2 - BE3/5V2 - BE3/5L2

 

From car data I expect it to be this:

406 20-16v. RFV. 20TA48 Final	4.157895		rpm		km/h
1st Gear	3.454545		6500		49.6
2nd Gear	1.869565		6500		91.7
3rd gear	1.36	25x34	6500		126.1
4th gear	1.05	39x41	6500		163.3
5th gear	0.865	43x37	6500		198.2

 

Which would be pretty similar to 1.6 gti box, but a tad lower geared. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by wicked

[Arthur 12]

If the lot fit's in BE3 or be4 bell housing, it might be possible. Only difference I can spot in the drawing/picture of the bell housing is at the starter.

 

Looks like they took the intermediate bearing from between the 4 and 5, and put that after the 6. Not like be3/6 witch has 3 bearings. The bearing gives more room for the 5 to get inside intermediate casing, and the 6 sticks even fits. 6 gears in the same space of 4 with a BE3. The gears and hubs must be thinner then in the past. 

 

This is how they should have done the be3/6 yeas back in my opinion. Be3/6 was basically a bolt on 6th gear solution. If the spines mach older be3 and be4, their might be possibilities. Part 12 gear combo from a be3 or be4, probably needs to be cut in 2 though. This looks like a fun project. Not because I need it, but because we can. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Arthur

[SRDT 182]

1 hour ago, wicked said:

How do you get from a gearbox code to that P-PK / N / L-LK codes?

When looking for a 309 gearbox with the old servicebox you find " DIESEL XUD7T BE3/5LK CT19X17 175X65X14 TYRES
UP TO 05/1993 " even before the specific gearbox code, it doesn't look that easy for the 406 but maybe you can filter by engine so that only the right gears shows.

 

 

1 hour ago, Arthur said:

If the lot fit's in BE3 or be4 bell housing, it might be possible. Looks like they took the intermediate bearing from between the 4 and 5, and put that after the 6. Not like be3/6 witch has 3 bearings. The bearing gives more room for the 5 to get inside intermediate casing, and the 6 sticks even fits. 6 gears in the same space of 4 with a BE3. The gears and hubs must be thinner then in the past.

 

They did exactly that and extended the later BE4 casing:

 

The syncros were designed in the late 70' so it's not really hard to find thinner ones, the 1/2 syncro is now closer to the bellhousing so they notched the reverse gear shaft:

 

 

As for the BE3/6 it was never supposed to be a regular gearbox: it started with the BE1/6 for the 205 GTI Gr.A rally car and somehow ended as a street legal gearbox for the Hommell Berlinette and the 306 S16.

Page 12 for the BE1/6 and 98 for the BE3/6:

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1486729201/homologation_form_number_5325_group_a.pdf

 

They also made a proper 6 speed dog box using a spacer:

 

 

http://www.peugeotsport-store.com/cms/web/upload/documentation/170/507ff6cc614e2.pdf

Edited January 3, 2019 by SRDT

[Arthur 12]

haha. I used witch in staid of which, sorry, I'm Dutch.

 

Nice to see all these pictures. When I look at ebay and dutch ebay like sites, I see no MB6 boxes like this for 1.2 puretech. Even a local supplier here who's scrapes heaps of Peugeot's never heart of the thing. Must be quite rare still.  Can these manuals be looked into for people who don't work at Peugeot?

Edited January 4, 2019 by Arthur

[SRDT 182]

The gearbox was just introduced with the Euro 6c engines, they are phasing out the MCM 6 speed to use only the MB6 and ML6C.

The parts catalog is named Servicebox, no need to work at Peugeot and the parts catalog is free ; but you're supposed to be a pro to register.

[SRDT 182]

You can now find used gearboxes by searching 20V258, 20V246 or 20V249 on google, still expansive as they are almost new.

[Tom16v 0]

Out of the above codes, which is the one with the longest gearing? 
I actually run a 206 HDI as my daily and after a bit of tuning it really needs a longer top gear to make the best of the torque at cruising speeds. 

[SRDT 182]

20V246 is mated to a 1.5 HDI engine so it must be longer than the other two but I can't check on servicebox anymore.

Is your engine a 2.0 or 1.6 HDI?

 

Edit:

It's most likely the D1 gearset, as for the final drive it's 19x75.

Edited May 9, 2020 by SRDT

[Tom16v 0]

Thanks.
It’s the 2.0 HDI that I have. I’m in the process of fitting a front mount intercooler and hoping to get a hybrid core for the turbo. It has a high pressure fuel pump from an M57 BMW engine and I’m going to fit a higher pressure fuel rail sensor. I’m hoping it should make quite enough torque to pull some taller gearing with an appropriate map, but am really struggling to find anything to be honest. 
currently it has a 47/31 top gear with 19/70 final drive in the BE4. 

cheers

Tom

[SRDT 182]

With a 2.0 you need a DW/EW bellhousing and it's probably better to find one from 2007 at least so that you have the gear selection finger (3):

 

If you want a reverse lockout you need to figure it out yourself as there is none inside the gearbox, you can try to fit a BE1 cable lockout.

Other problems may arise as this swap is still unheard of...

[welshpug 1,661]

dw/ew is still the wrong bellhousing for xu.

[SRDT 182]

Yes and you won't find a XU bellhousing with the selection finger so you need a way to add one or revert to the old BE1 selector and tweak it to match the new 6 speed pattern.

On a 205 you also need a custom gearbox mount, same style than the 206 XS Volant.

 

Another 6 speed gearbox option for Tom's 206 is the big ML6C, Peugeot used the 5 speed version casings on the 206 RC Gr.A rally car so it should probably fit and it's rated for 370 N.m.

[Tom16v 0]

5 hours ago, SRDT said:

Yes and you won't find a XU bellhousing with the selection finger so you need a way to add one or revert to the old BE1 selector and tweak it to match the new 6 speed pattern.

On a 205 you also need a custom gearbox mount, same style than the 206 XS Volant.

 

Another 6 speed gearbox option for Tom's 206 is the big ML6C, Peugeot used the 5 speed version casings on the 206 RC Gr.A rally car so it should probably fit and it's rated for 370 N.m.

Yes, I think the ML6C is a bit long for the 206. I think others have tried this and it fouls the wheel on right hand steering lock.

[Tom16v 0]

If I’m honest, I think a slightly longer 5th ratio in the current BE4 would suffice in my 206. Silly question alert, but I don’t suppose the updated 50t primary gear from the 50/33 5th gear set will mesh with the 31t secondary gear in my current box? 

[SRDT 182]

Silly perhaps but those who forcefully tried to swap only one gear without asking regretted it dearly...

You need to change both gears but the MB6 ones are far from bolt on.

 

if you can find one there is also a gearbox with a 19x63 final drive on the 206 2.0 HDI Eco X Line:

 

http://catcar.info/peugeot/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTgwfHxzdHM9PXsiMTAiOiJNb2RlbCIsIjIwIjoiMjA2IiwiNDAiOiJCb2R5OiB3aXRob3V0IHBhcmFtZXRlcnMgXC8gRW5naW5lOiAyLjAgSERpIDkwIiwiNTAiOiJtZWNoYW5pY2FsIiwiNzAiOiJnZWFyYm94IiwiODAiOiJNQU5VQUwgR0VBUkJPWCJ9fHxjb2RlPT0xUFQxfHxib2R5PT18fGVuZ2luZT09QjBGMlh8fGNhdF9pZD09RkNUMDAwMXx8c3ViR3JwX2lkPT1GQ1QwMDE3fHxyZWZkb2NzPT1UMUYyMjJBMTFCfHxyZWZkb2M9PVQxRjIyMkExMUJ8fHN1YkdycE5hbWU9PU1BTlVBTCBHRUFSQk9YfHxzdXBwbGllcj09

 

http://catcar.info/peugeot/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTgwfHxzdHM9PXsiMTAiOiJNb2RlbCIsIjIwIjoiMjA2IiwiNDAiOiJCb2R5OiB3aXRob3V0IHBhcmFtZXRlcnMgXC8gRW5naW5lOiAyLjAgSERpIDkwIiwiNTAiOiJtZWNoYW5pY2FsIiwiNzAiOiJnZWFyYm94IiwiODAiOiJNQU5VQUwgR0VBUkJPWCJ9fHxjb2RlPT0xUFQxfHxib2R5PT18fGVuZ2luZT09QjBGMlh8fGNhdF9pZD09RkNUMDAwMXx8c3ViR3JwX2lkPT1GQ1QwMDE3fHxyZWZkb2NzPT1UMUYyMjJBMTFBfHxyZWZkb2M9PVQxRjIyMkExMUF8fHN1YkdycE5hbWU9PU1BTlVBTCBHRUFSQk9YfHxzdXBwbGllcj09

[Tom16v 0]

Ahh. That’s the box I need I think. Do you happen to know of any way of working out the code stamped on these boxes?

thanks again. 

[Arthur 12]

looks like MB6 is also found in Opel Grandland and Corsa. The corsa has the 19 x 68 FD

Edited May 11, 2020 by Arthur