First proper engine build! High compression xu9/10 16v

[IRISH_MI16 2]

Yes that's right. Essentially a total novice with high performance petrol engine building attempting a full build. What could possibly go wrong!!! 

 

Anyway! 

The last few weeks have been fantastic for both me and the 405 really. 

 

Today I picked up the next round of parts for it for 2019. 

 Being as I can insure it in January the plan is to build a second engine for a later date. 

And this is it. 

 

What I've got so far is

1 complete s16 engine with a knackered water pump that I bought for 80 euro. 

a xu10j4 iron block from an s16 that has been bored, decked and honed to 86.5mm 

1 mi16 cylinder head with unknown regrinds. 

1 damaged Gti6 head that I may or may not knick the valve guides out of for the mi16 head 

Kent cam pulleys 

Wossner 12.5:1 high compression pistons

Pts sump baffle

Pug racing 4 branch exhaust manifold 

Jenvey 48s 

Spoox aluminium crank pulley(ordered) 

 

Obviously I'm missing valves, valve springs, lifters, rockers, conrods and a crank to name but a few. 

How ever the complete s16 engine can donate what's needed provided its in good condition. 

 

Once I get a chance to measure the cams it should help me figure out what lift they are 

 

Valve wise I want to go bigger 36.25mm intake and standard exhaust. 

But in all honesty I think I will leave this idea for a later big valve lairy 290 degree head. 

For the moment I'm think 1 piece stainless valves of standard size. 

 

Crank shaft leaves me a few options. Stay standard, go with a 88mm Hdi crank or an xud11 92mm crank. 

88mm Hdi sounds like the best option to me here as they are easy come by and forged. 

 

Conrod wise I'd think pec forged rods might suit my application and keeping cost in mind. But if anyone has any suggestions for better quality rods in a similar price range. New or used I'm open to that. 

 

Hoping to make a start at preparing the head tomorrow with a mild port and polish just to tidy it up. 

I may even hand polish the outer casting to 2500grit no performance gains obviously but it will look the the job. Might give the block the same treatment. 

 

Since this is my first major engine build any advice is hugely appreciated,

what's best practice,

what tools to use

What fasteners are best used and where to get them. 

What gaskets and seals should I use 

 

Has anyone got a service manual for an xu10j4, xu10j4 and a dw10(for crank specs) 

 

 

 

[petert 586]

Measure, measure, measure and take notes. First you need to know the deck height of that decked block. You also need to measure the pin of the Wossner piston. OEM is 23mm but Wossner are usually 22mm. Is there a part number on the piston crown?

[Putte205 4]

I'm cunfused, I keep seeing people mentioning rockers and rocker covers in different threads on here. English isn't my first language, am I missing something? I've never seen any of them on a XU engine

[petert 586]

Harsh.

[IRISH_MI16 2]

19 minutes ago, Putte205 said:

I'm cunfused, I keep seeing people mentioning rockers and rocker covers in different threads on here. English isn't my first language, am I missing something? I've never seen any of them on a XU engine

Rocker cover is another name for cam cover/valve cover and rockers are those little arm dude you see when you take the rocker cover off. Tappets is another name on them 

[Putte205 4]

It was an honest question, I was beginning to think I had the terms all mixed up as I see it so often on here

[JeffR 51]

I used standard XU9J4 rods shot peened with ARP bolts and spun it to 8250rpm in my 1.9, so that's a budget option, or get some better (non Chinese) rods.

Also J4RS valve stem diameter is 6mm, XU9 are 7mm.

[petert 586]

I don't have an XU10J4 rebuild manual, but I do have an XU9J4 manual. It's basically the same, less the pistons & liners etc.

[IRISH_MI16 2]

13 hours ago, JeffR said:

I used standard XU9J4 rods shot peened with ARP bolts and spun it to 8250rpm in my 1.9, so that's a budget option, or get some better (non Chinese) rods.

Also J4RS valve stem diameter is 6mm, XU9 are 7mm.

I think I found a company reasonably local to me that does shot peening. I'll hold off for a while first to see if any rods pop up second hand. 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

9 hours ago, petert said:

I don't have an XU10J4 rebuild manual, but I do have an XU9J4 manual. It's basically the same, less the pistons & liners etc.

Oh brilliant. Any chance you could email it to me Peter? 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

Went hunting today for a hdi crankshaft. Pulled the one out of my dad's 400,000 mile 406. Looks to be in good condition so hopefully this will do the trick. I like the idea of recycling old/used parts. 

Didn't have my phone with me to take pictures but I'll run back over tomorrow and get some 

Holding out for a used set of pec rods for another few weeks before I order new ones. 

Come to think of it I've bought hardly anything new for it. If that's a good or a bad thing I do not know

[JeffR 51]

I wouldn't be on the lookout for PEC rods. Read dcc (Dan's) comments on them here-

 

https://www.205gtidrivers.com/forums/topic/163137-wiseco-pistons/?page=2

[welshpug 1,657]

On 12/29/2018 at 5:22 PM, Putte205 said:

It was an honest question, I was beginning to think I had the terms all mixed up as I see it so often on here

its very lazy English, technically quite incorrect in reference to an xu engine, as you know there are no rockers.

 

comes from the age when everything ancient was pushrod operated and all there was under them was the rocker assembly.

[welshpug 1,657]

20 hours ago, IRISH_MI16 said:

I think I found a company reasonably local to me that does shot peening. I'll hold off for a while first to see if any rods pop up second hand. 

shot peening wont resolve the inherent design flaws leading to stress risers, as well as poor q.c.

[JeffR 51]

I’ve no idea whet Danny intends to use his upgraded car for, circuit racing, hill climbs, 1/4 mile, or fast road.
The suggestions I’ve offered would see those applications catered for based on my experience of components used.
Mei, what concerns you about the qc of oem rods? I got 7 years without any problems spinning them 1000rpm higher than the limit.

 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

My intended use is fast road and occasional track use.

My budget is limited. That is why rod choice is more critical than it would be for most. Surely pec would be an upgrade from standard?, obviously rodson would be better again but they are out of budget. The deadline I have in mind is late 2019. A long deadline but being as this is my first proper build that's probably a little tight. 

If there was more information available on Maxpeedingrods I'd try those 

[petert 586]

Your rod design choice is based on three things:

stroke/2

piston pin diameter

piston compression height

deck height (235.1mm)

 

Have you measured the pin diameter and compression height of the Wossner's yet? Without this information you really can't move forward. For example, assuming you have a 96mm DW12 crank and a virgin block:

 

48 + rod length + compression height = 235.1mm

 

Your chances of finding 2nd hand rods to fit the 96mm crank with a 22mm pin (if I'm correct) are remote. If you're set on using the Wossners and the 96mm crank, you should really visit Robsons for your rods. Given you've got most of bits cheaply or for zero, I'd be investing in the rods.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by petert

[IRISH_MI16 2]

It's a 88mm dw10 crank is what I'm planning on using. 

The pistons have a 22mm pin. 

The block to my knowledge hasn't been decked(I will confirm this) but has been bored and honed

 

The compression height I'm getting is 21mm if I've measured correctly. 

 

48+21+152 = 221mm 

 

I have gotten most everything cheaply 

I'll hold off on rods for a while and save for a good set. 

[petert 586]

half of 88 is 44. Thus if you have measured the compression height correctly, you'll need a 170.1mm rod, which is an unlikely size. Are you sure you measured the comp height correctly? I'd expect it to be >30mm.

 

235.1 - 44 - 21 = 170.1

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Afternoon Danny. Exciting times with your Xu10j4 engine build. If your Wossner pistons still have their boxes, there should be a Wossner reference number on there. From that , you can check on the Wossner site for the piston data. Your measured compression height of 21mm must be in error . With a 22mm pin , 11 of the 21mm will be the pin . I am also building an  Xu10j4 but with the EW12 crank (96mm stroke ) Wiseco are making my pistons with a 29mm compression height ( which is about as small as one would go for a road engine ) and Robson the rods . 

As for the head, you mentioned taking the guides from a gti6 (RS) Head. Proceed with caution as the RS head used 6mm valve stems, the XU9/10j4 heads have 7mm valve stems, so if you are planning to use the RS guides, you will need the RS valves as well. The next snag is that the RS valves are not the same diameter as the 9/10j4 ones , as the inlet is slightly smaller and the exhaust slightly larger on the RS engine , so valve seats will need  work. Depending on the condition of your S16 head, you might be better to simply replace the guides, use the S16 valves and get the valve seats recut. .

As for choice of cams, you may also need to consider valve to piston  clearance at, and just beyond TDC so lots to think about .

 And finally, top tip for 2019. Do your research, enjoy the process and (a) listen and then (b) take Peters’ advice .

Andy

[IRISH_MI16 2]

Well that was a more hectic two weeks than intended! Between my passat falling down on its nose (again don't buy cheap arms lesson learned the hard way) and turning 25. I've only just got around to measure the compression height and have come up with 42.5mm. 

 

Going to stay with the bigger stems and use the s16 head has as I would like the bigger valves. 

 

Going to do the head first and tidy up the block casting while I save for rods. 

 

Can some one explain to me how I would figure out what lift my cams are? They are regrinds and the last owner doesn't remember what they are

 

[petert 586]

Measure the X and Y axis of a lobe, then subtract the two. That is the lift. Regrinds typically have the same or a tad less lift than the original, as it's impossible to turn water into wine. Are there any markings/stamps on the cams? An inlet regrind is not going to measure up to your expectations anyhow.

[IRISH_MI16 2]

I'll measure them tonight and see what the story is with them. There's no markings that I could find. 

 

Both cams have been ground to, what visually looks to be the same. 

 

I'm not expecting to much from them but if they offer a good improvement I may aswell use them. (more money for rods) 

 

I recently drove a gti6 rally car with 235bhp at 7800 and was very impressed. 

 

8000 to 8500rpm would be amazing if mine was only for track days but 7500 or a little more is more usable more of the time. And it should have better manners in traffic as I might drive it to work every so often.

 

 

 

 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

Fought the manflu today and went to the shed. This is the dust problem I was referring to. 

 

Took the head I'm using out of the boot and set about striping it, 

Head casting is in good condition but my reground cams are toast in my opinion. 

So its back to the drawing board on that one 

[JeffR 51]

If those cams turn out to be toast, I've got the ones that originally came with my engine.

 

Specs here-