Knackered starter motor?

[AlGentry 0]

I acquired a 205 Gentry last July, it had 70,500 miles on the clock and I have done several hundred miles in it since. From the start it had the intermittent "clicking starter motor" problem, the guy I bought it off cleaned up the "top hat" battery earth connector when it did it on his drive (oops!) but (once I was home) remaking the earth connection on the engine didn't make any difference nor did "gentle percussive maintenance" on the starter motor from underneath... of course, it was hot weather then. Back in the summer I also changed the earth connector for one off a 309 I am scrapping, and more recently cut off the old earth connector to the battery and fitted a cheap clamp type, but neither of these changes made any difference at all.

Now the cold is here the starter motor has become very sluggish, it turns very slowly and seems to make a grinding sound (and the rev counter starts working, the slower the starter motor turns the more revs it shows up to 2000rpm). The battery is reasonable well charged (it was at 12.6v 4 hours after fully charging overnight) and after these shenanigans is still at a stable 12.4v after a short wait for it to settle. And when the starter motor is grinding slowly there sounds like electrical sparking/shorting (I assume in the starter motor) and the battery volts drop down to 7.5v or even to the 6v region on my digital multimeter. This is with the engine both cold and then warmed up.

But every third attempt to start - whether the engine is hot or cold - the starter motor turns as normal (slower when the engine is cold though) and the engine starts pretty much instantly with the battery voltage dipping to 8.4v for a fraction of a second then returning up to 13.4v from the alternator output instantly. (I also found that the nut on the alternator wire was hand tight so I have nipped that up as well). Just to confirm, this is with a battery straight from charging overnight after standing for 4 hours, so it has surprised me somewhat.

Is the problem, as I suspect, the starter motor which seems to be shot, or should I be looking elsewhere?

(The car has spent two periods of a couple of years just parked up with previous owners, so I went into this expecting to have to do some work to get the thing 100%.)

Thanks in advance .

[PhilNW 44]

Check the wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid they are a common problem

[Ozymandis 97]

Remove clean and refit the cables and earth first.

Find the solenoid "activation" terminal, on the back of the motor solenoid, remove the connector then fit a temporary cable long enough to put on the battery positive then hold it on to start, and see if the intermittent things gone, if not then its the motor. if it has gone then its a wiring,or switch problem.

[welshpug 1,661]

does sound like a shot starter motor, has that sparking sound gone since tightening the terminal nut on the alternator?

 

 

[AlGentry 0]

Cheers for these replies, I've spotted threads on the problems (like intermittent starting and clicking starter motor solenoid) that failing wiring can cause on other threads but no-one else has described their starter motor doing this (as far as I know, I've been mostly looking in the archives though). I'm OK working on and around cars and can make and use fly leads, that doesn't worry me.

And yes, the sparking sound is still there (it hasn't gone) even though the alternator terminal nut has been tightened.

I've read on some of these threads that removing the AFM can give enough access to remove the starter motor, or that it can be removed from below if it is one of the smaller ones (Mitsubishi?). Do I really need to remove the inlet manifold (as the Haynes Book of Lies says)? I'm lucky I still have my old 309 with XU51C engine, so I can get a feel for the setup of what I am supposed to be working on.

(As you've probably guessed) I've removed the AFM this afternoon (it needs cleaning with carb cleaner and I need to remove the SAD to clean it properly so it needed to be removed at some point anyway) but can't get near the starter motor wiring connectors despite removing the AFM and nearby oil breather pipes - there is a thick wiring harness as well as a thin coolant hose (between thermostat housing and throttle body?) in the way, for a start.

If anyone has any tips for getting to the starter motor so I can test as others have suggested, I will be very grateful. If the inlet manifold has to come off (and Haynes is no use on how to do this) then so be it...

Thanks in advance, once again .

[Ozymandis 97]

All You need to know is on this thread

[AlGentry 0]

Excellent  , cheers for that link. I'd not found anything so specific while wading through old posts, I am reassured I am on the right track now. Much appreciated .

It will be Monday now before I can do anything, but I'll report back then.

[Telf 224 2 Cars]

unbolt it and wiggle it out- its a pig to remove but not impossible

 

[AlGentry 0]

Cheers for that. I must be doing something wrong as I've still not got to the solenoid spade terminal (though I am happy about how to remove the starter motor) - it's an Auto and the automatic gearbox dipstick tube gets in the way of removing the throttle body from its mounting threads but it was the clutter (wiring harness tubing, oil filler column which was a pain to try to remove and so on) under the inlet manifold that was the real pain. I will loosen the slam panel and move the rad forward before I reassemble, I think!

 

But initial investigation with the starter motor in situ showed that the problem seems to have been that the nut on the 12v terminal on the back of the starter motor was slightly loose - the wires could be moved around on the thread using finger pressure (it was looser than the alternator connector nut was) - and nipping this up (using a socket on a jointed end on an extension bar on a wrench from the alternator side of the inlet manifold) means that the starter motor now turns reliably every time (I have tried 30 or 40 times now - fuel pump fuse out and wiring connector to the ignition coil on the inlet manifold disconnected for safety) with no problems apart from the starter motor speed being sightly different each time - but, allowing for 3C outside and the engine cold, it turns over at a good speed and sounds just like an XU starter motor should .

I have other stuff to do in the engine bay (like removing and cleaning the SAD properly and having a go at the throttle body) while access is good, and the car is off the road for the winter anyway (the gritters are out here now) so it is a work in progress. And while access is good, I will get the multimeter out, remake the engine earth connection again, try for the solenoid spade connector to do this job properly and so on as well. And in future I will have a far better idea what I am doing should the starter motor play up - you've got to look on the bright side...

But at least I found something wrong today, and the situation seems much better .

[jackherer 543]

There should be a toothed washer on there to stop that nut coming undone and provide a good electrical connection. It's probably not worth messing about with now it's working but if it comes loose again check for the presence of a washer before you tighten it back up.