Road and race mi16 engine. Help me spec it!

[IRISH_MI16 2]

Afternoon everyone. 

I'm sure this as been asked time and time again with varying responses. 

However! I'll ask again haha. 

Ive been browsing the forums on here and other websites trying to decide what way to spec the engine I want in the Mig. 

And this has caused some face melting, sleepless nights and general indecision. 

 

I do have some idea of what I'm after but when it comes to specing the engine out I'm not sure. 

 

I would like it to be over built to help with reliability. 

 

Some of what I've been thinking. 

I would like it to be a big valved affair that would rev to maybe 8500. 

High compression would also be excellent. 

I'd ultimately like 220bhp at the wheels. 

 

This also brings be to another question. What clutches are good at that power that can take a bit of abuse? It's a weekend/summer car and will do track days (anyone for Oulton Park in 2019?)

 

Looking for suggestions 

On valve sizes 

Cam degrees

Pistons and conrods

Crank shafts(xud9te or 2.1td)

Lubrication system upgrades and mods

Injectors and fuel pump

I have jenvey 48s so I will be using those. 

Im open to using a different block

Anything else I might have missed? 

 

Sorry for the long winded post that's probably ruined your toilet break 

 

 

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I’d do a search, there’s some fantastic information available on this forum on tuning Mi16s, I’d specifically look at big capacity iron block engines.

unless your gearing is dictating your 8500rpm rev limit I wouldn’t get too hung up on reving it that high, especially if you’re after reliability. 

 

Sounds likke you’ve got a big budget  but I think money would be better spent elsewhere rather than on bigger valves. 

 

Clutch cover plates seem to be an issue at sustained high revs rather than the friction plate, handing to power/torque. I’d look at a twin plate, again there was a really good thread on here recently about clutches.

Remeber though a race clutch is not particularly nice on the road and vice versa.... 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

27 minutes ago, allanallen said:

I’d do a search, there’s some fantastic information available on this forum on tuning Mi16s, I’d specifically look at big capacity iron block engines.

unless your gearing is dictating your 8500rpm rev limit I wouldn’t get too hung up on reving it that high, especially if you’re after reliability. 

 

Sounds likke you’ve got a big budget  but I think money would be better spent elsewhere rather than on bigger valves. 

 

Clutch cover plates seem to be an issue at sustained high revs rather than the friction plate, handing to power/torque. I’d look at a twin plate, again there was a really good thread on here recently about clutches.

Remeber though a race clutch is not particularly nice on the road and vice versa.... 

Don't have a big budget but more like Alot of time and a good work ethic so if something needs buying that's a tad expensive I'll start hopping off over time and cash money jobs lol. 

The valves I had in mind are 25stg per valve. About half the price of the 35.5mm valves from spooxs. 

 

I'd like to be able to rev to 8500 but how often it would see that unless it's on track I do not know. 

 

I had been looking at stroked iron blocks and they are very appealing. Can't argue with the extra torque. 

 

It's already a pig to drive on the road with the clutch that's in it so I don't  mind a heavy clutch at all. 

 

I had been looking at twin plate clutches about 2 years ago and they seemed to be priced very reasonably. Can't think why I didn't buy one at the time. 

 

I'll do another search tonight after work and see what I can find here. Its just a sea of info on here

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Morning,

 There are others on here that have forgotten more about the XU9/10j4 engines than I will ever know. Spend a few hours reading through some of the relevant threads will be a good starting point. However, you probably need to decide first whether you are going for the alloy (XU9J4) or the iron(xu10j4) engine . Next, rpm. If you want to rev reliably at 7500rpm plus, my money would be on solid lifters and suitable cams . Oil control. Read Peter Taylor’s advice on oil control, then follow it and enjoy blasting around the track . For reliability and peace of mind, forged rods , ARP bolts and forged pistons . Compression ratio and cam choice are intimately related , decide upon the latter and the former will follow . I could go on, but I would only be paraphrasing ( probably badly) what others have already written and done. I am in the middle of doing something not dissimilar to you, with an alloy block, 85mm liners, forged rods and piston,s Peter Taylor solid cams, solid lifters, Supertech valves , Jenveys , Satchell inlet and a Miles Horne exhaust manifold. Power? Not bothered particularly , but I am after an engine that will rev freely, be reliable, decent torque bandwidth and generally send my 205 down the road a a respectable pace, tick over smoothly, start easily and pleasant to drive in traffic 

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

+1...

 

And note that long stroke and high revs is not the best combination... 

[petert 586]

Here's some inspiration and probably not what you want to see. It's a graph from a friend's K20/K24 combination, standard inlet manifold and otherwise standard engine. Notice it has more than 140kW at the wheels from 6500-8000+. With cams, 11:1 and E85 the same K20/K24 configuration makes 165kW (@8500) at the wheels, the sort of numbers you're looking for.

 

I'm not suggesting you change to the dark side, but if you want a reliable 220hp ATW, then big capacity is the way to do it. Have a read of Dr Sarty's build for starters. Also do a search for Black_Mi16's 2.3L build.

 

 

 

 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

59 minutes ago, petert said:

Here's some inspiration and probably not what you want to see. It's a graph from a friend's K20/K24 combination, standard inlet manifold and otherwise standard engine. Notice it has more than 140kW at the wheels from 6500-8000+. With cams, 11:1 and E85 the same K20/K24 configuration makes 165kW (@8500) at the wheels, the sort of numbers you're looking for.

 

I'm not suggesting you change to the dark side, but if you want a reliable 220hp ATW, then big capacity is the way to do it. Have a read of Dr Sarty's build for starters. Also do a search for Black_Mi16's 2.3L build.

 

 

 

 

I'll give those a read tonight so! I briefly looked into Honda engines for a p10 primera project I have waiting for when the pug is done. But over here a k20 is about 3-5000 euro. 

I would love an mi16 that revs to 8500 but I wouldn't turn my nose up at 7k either. 

[IRISH_MI16 2]

5 hours ago, petert said:

Here's some inspiration and probably not what you want to see. It's a graph from a friend's K20/K24 combination, standard inlet manifold and otherwise standard engine. Notice it has more than 140kW at the wheels from 6500-8000+. With cams, 11:1 and E85 the same K20/K24 configuration makes 165kW (@8500) at the wheels, the sort of numbers you're looking for.

 

I'm not suggesting you change to the dark side, but if you want a reliable 220hp ATW, then big capacity is the way to do it. Have a read of Dr Sarty's build for starters. Also do a search for Black_Mi16's 2.3L build.

 

 

 

 

You don't happen to have a link to black mi16s build do you? 

[welshpug 1,657]

theres really no need for "big valves" thats an old school tuner non pug way of building engines, pug valves are more than big enough, I have standard valves and head ports for about 200 whp, it goes to 7700 and still runs hydraulic tappets, it is a 2188cc engine.

 

if you stay at 1998cc then you'll need more revs which is where the expense comes in, solid tappets and all the machining time and setup time adds a huge amount, as does custom exhaust manifolds (my 2.2 runs a standard gti6 exhaust manifold)

 

oh and I'm using a standard valeo pull clutch, coping fine.

[welshpug 1,657]

p.s, my own engine is an 87x92, newman ph4 cams, piper double springs, omega XE pistons from qed modified by sandy brown as the valve cutouts need a little tickle.

 

robson engineering rods to my own spec with help from sandy on dimensions.

 

satchell inlet, 45mm jenvey TH's, satchell trumpets, 3 angle valve seats, gti6 exhaust manifold, pugsport downpipe and a milltek exhaust.

[petert 586]

I'd be following Welshpug's route of 87x92, with Robson rods etc. Given you have Mi16 heads, with heavier valves than GTi6, you're really locked into solid lifters, if you want to rev it hard. Follow the 35.5mm inlet valve route, so you have the ability to create a proper 3 angle seat.

 

Having said that, I can give you a 86.5x86 solid head formula, that will give you 185hp at the wheels at a far cheaper price.

Edited July 25, 2018 by petert

[IRISH_MI16 2]

7 hours ago, petert said:

I'd be following Welshpug's route of 87x92, with Robson rods etc. Given you have Mi16 heads, with heavier valves than GTi6, you're really locked into solid lifters, if you want to rev it hard. Follow the 35.5mm inlet valve route, so you have the ability to create a proper 3 angle seat.

 

Having said that, I can give you a 86.5x86 solid head formula, that will give you 185hp at the wheels at a far cheaper price.

Welll it is always good to have options! 185 at the wheels is a good place to start

 

[petert 586]

It's actually 87x86mm.

12:1, flat top pistons

36mm inlet valves, 30mm exhaust valves

33mm open solid buckets

inlet cam 276º, 243º @ 0.050", 0.431" lift

exh cam 266º, 233º @ 0.050", 0.375" lift

48mm TB's

98 octane

 

Could have pushed the top end further but we had limited dyno time. The blue line is the same head on an 84x88mm bottom end, 11.25:1.

 

[dcc 855]

Your budget is the biggest factor here.

 

Low budget but high reward for me wpuld be a 138bhp EW motor, cams, bodies, exhaust and youre at 200bhp ish

 

Bigger budget and youre around250bhp with pistons, rods and worked head

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

34 minutes ago, petert said:

It's actually 87x86mm.

12:1, flat top pistons

36mm inlet valves, 30mm exhaust valves

33mm open solid buckets

inlet cam 276º, 243º @ 0.050", 0.431" lift

exh cam 266º, 233º @ 0.050", 0.375" lift

48mm TB's

98 octane

 

Could have pushed the top end further but we had limited dyno time. The blue line is the same head on an 84x88mm bottom end, 11.25:1.

 

That is a very interesting graph Peter..The iron engine has 5% more capacity and nearly 10% more power. I guess the c.r would help a bit and the increased bore on squish. I am hoping that my 85x88 gets somewhere in between. 

 

[petert 586]

Reduced squish, more CR and valves are unshrouded thanks to larger bore, meaning more CFM. It's very rapid in a 205.

Edited July 25, 2018 by petert

[RossD 44]

This is what a pretty stock EW 2.0 will do. Its running standard head, valves, inlet manifold etc, just with a mild replacement inlet cam, to get rid of the VVT to provide simplicity. Darn, its not even been fully mapped, I've just mapped it on the road, so probably more to come by swinging the valve timing around and optimising the fuel / ignition. (These figures are at the flywheel mind you, not at the wheels like the graphs above).

From a budget perspective, the EW starts to make sense when you consider that would need a standalone ECU, but a lot less engine work is required, which provides OE levels of durability and spares availability.

Cam specs are:

 

Duration @ 0.1mm: 252°

Duration @ 1.0mm: 224°

Valve lift: 10.50mm

valve lift @ TDC: 1.4mm

 

 

 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

8 hours ago, IRISH_MI16 said:

Welll it is always good to have options! 185 at the wheels is a good place to start

 

Oh. One more thing. Cost. High power from an Xu10j4 will not come cheaply. Even if you have bodies, an ecu, a loom, a fuel system and a cooling system plus inlet and exhaust manifolds, the bare engine will run into several thousand pounds .

[IRISH_MI16 2]

22 hours ago, petert said:

 

 

7 hours ago, Andy said:

Oh. One more thing. Cost. High power from an Xu10j4 will not come cheaply. Even if you have bodies, an ecu, a loom, a fuel system and a cooling system plus inlet and exhaust manifolds, the bare engine will run into several thousand pounds .

I think what Peter has suggested is pretty good place to start.. I already have some of what I need I.e throttle bodies, 4 branch and currently trying to decide on what ecu to use. I've already had to beef up the cooling system because of the summer we are having. 

The loom is going to be as barebones as possible just for ease of maintenance. 

I would describe what I plan to spend as a moderate amount. I don't want to set a budget but at the same time I want to be careful and only spend what's nessicary to build the engine I want. 

Time is about the only thing on my side lol 

[petert 586]

Do you have an XU10J4 or XU10J4RS block?

 

Nobody asked how you get 12:1 with flat top pistons.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Just to re-enforce what's been said above - it's all doable, but that dictated 8500rpm is going to be the killer. As Peter has said, I wouldn't get tied up on it, but if you really really want it then you'll be looking at an expensive bottom end if you want reliability too. My lump is "safe" to 8,500 on the proviso I'm happy with circa 1000 mile rebuilds, but it's a purely competition engine. I give myself a 8,250 limit in the interests of reliability and reducing that rebuild frequency.

 

Cheap it wasn't but if you want ~250 horses out of a 2.0 mi16 then...

 

For a road car, without competition constraints, there are easier and cheaper options to big power if you can get away from any "need" for a certain rev limit

Edited July 26, 2018 by brumster

[IRISH_MI16 2]

5 hours ago, petert said:

Do you have an XU10J4 or XU10J4RS block?

 

Nobody asked how you get 12:1 with flat top pistons.

I've got a xu9j4 in the car currently and an Xu10j4 in the shed and access to an rs as my mate as many because he keeps blowing them up

[petert 586]

The XU10J4 is perfect. Strip it and get started.

[IRISH_MI16 2]

10 minutes ago, petert said:

The XU10J4 is perfect. Strip it and get started.

I'll be able to use the xu9j4 head won't. Head on the 10 I have is meant to be cracked

[petert 586]

You can use the XU9J4 head, provided you use a diesel head bolt over the water pump.