Saxo power steering pump - unreliable / upgrade..?

[barneys66 122 1 Cars]

I run a Saxo EPAS hooked up to a Ph2 Xsara rack in my 205 and it's superb, other than when it's worked hard and craps out.

 

Competing in autosolos, where you're setting your car up for tight turns, being surprised by the steering momentarily losing power can be the difference between winning and losing a day's racing.

 

So, what can I do to get a more-reliable set-up.  I'm going to install a standard PAS cooling loop, but what about an upgraded alternator, EPAS mods, etc..?

 

Any thoughts welcome!

[petert 585]

You may well be boiling the oil but it's more likely the rack just needs a service. I run a PAS loop and even with heaps of caster, it still only runs 90-95.  My car starting exhibiting exactly the same symptoms at our last race. I haven't done the rack yet but that's my first port of call.

[petert 585]

After re-reading your post, I'm confused. Are you running a hydraulic or fully electric EPAS? We don't have Saxo here, thus I have no idea what they are.

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

They are an electro/hydraulic unit. Motor and fluid reservoir to a normal hydraulic rack. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by pugdamo

[barneys66 122 1 Cars]

Sorry Peter - Saxo (same as 106) hydraulic / electric pump.

 

Good call on rebuilding the rack - can you get kits or is it a case of piecing the parts together..?

 

[petert 585]

Yes, you can buy a seal kit but fitting the pinion seals is tricky. 

[jackherer 543]

We discussed this ages ago and one idea I had was to use an oil cooler radiator or similar instead of a cooling loop so you could hang it behind the coolant radiator where it would be cooled by the fan which might be an advantage at low speeds when there is little airflow.

 

It might be interesting to fit a temp gauge to see what is actually going on.

 

Do you ever see the battery light come on at low RPM? If not I don't think an uprated alternator would help, I can't remember how your PAS pump is wired, is it using a Saxo relay triggered off of the warning light wire? If so it'll turn off when the alternator can't keep up but the battery light will also come on.

 

 

[Biggles 65]

Just a thought but does it really get that hot during an autosolo ?  Yes, you're working it hard but only for a couple of minutes and then it has plenty of time to cool before your next run (or do I not understand autosolos ...).  This would suggest to me maybe it's a bit tired and needs a rebuild.

[jackherer 543]

There is a suggestion here - http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=497478 - that the hot fluid overheats the motors in this type of pump.

 

And they seem particularly critical of the Peugeot/Citroen pump. But they also say some are better than others.

 

I've got one of the Vauxhall pumps they talk about somewhere, you're welcome to try that to see if it helps. And I think I have a spare late model Saxo one (like yours with the built in reservoir) too if you want to try it back to back with yours sometime.

 

[jackherer 543]

As an aside I learnt recently that Peugeot actually fitted the Saxo/106 electric PAS pump to some 205s from the factory. From what I can see it was very late models (1996-1998 or thereabouts!) and possibly only sold in Spain.

 

They were mounted vertically with a different plastic cover and they use the original 205 PAS reservoir, I am still trying to work out exactly where they were fitted.

 

e.g. https://www.desguacesalcala.com/bomba-direccion/peugeot-205-berlina-18-d-generation-0995-1298/675404/

[barneys66 122 1 Cars]

Thanks all for the replies!

 

Peter - any special tools required..?

 

Kieran - you're right, we did discuss that (my memory!).  Might try the rack rebuild and cooling loop in the first instance, though I wonder if now I'm using the oil / water heat exchanger I can modify the original oil cooler somehow - would make for a nice easy fit..?

 

Yes on the trigger wiring - I run my tickover pretty high to take account of this and the cooling fan pulling the revs down just when I don't want it too, but I think I'll move the EPAS over to the same rocker switch I have my fuel pump now run through, as that'll have the added benefit of being able to turn it on when the engine isn't running.

 

Interesting on the pumps, and thanks for the offer!  I'll keep that in mind if all else fails..

 

Michael - often there is time to cool down, though by how much is unknown, but sometimes you can do consecutive tests back-to-back (there are 20 in a day, over four tests).  I'm also thinking my pump doesn't get the same level of airflow (being sat on top of the battery tray) as it would in the Saxo/106, so this may be contributing to heat soak, etc.

 

Plenty of food for thought, and a list of things to do, so thanks again.

[petert 585]

You need to carefully remove the staking which retains the top pinion seal. Could be via dremel tool, in a lathe etc. More importantly is replacing the stack of four or five seals beneath that. If you try to fit them cold you will stretch them. Best take the pinion to a steering place, who will warm up the seals up and fit them.

[Rippthrough 98]

They don't like hot fluid, and if they're spare units out of crashed 106s/Saxo's all bets are off - they die incredibly quickly with a bit of impact load, even when rubber mounted. I've gone away from them on the buggy because of it, I think we went through 4 pumps in 4-5 years.

[jackherer 543]

On 6/9/2018 at 4:56 PM, barneys66 said:

Kieran - you're right, we did discuss that (my memory!).  Might try the rack rebuild and cooling loop in the first instance, though I wonder if now I'm using the oil / water heat exchanger I can modify the original oil cooler somehow - would make for a nice easy fit..?

The factory oil cooler location isn't blown by the fan, I think having some forced airflow over whatever you use as a cooler will be beneficial at the low speeds you're doing otherwise it is just acting as a heatsink rather than a radiator so it will absorb heat up to a point which is fine for occasional transient spikes followed by time to cool in air flow (AKA road driving!) but if you are putting sustained bursts of steering input in without getting up to much speed that heat has nowhere to go so it loses all heat sinking ability.

[petert 585]

I bought this power steering oil cooler off eBay with the intention of adding it in series with the cooling loop. Ford #F37D-3A713-BB. I think it was around AUS$30. Have a look. There's plenty of other options as well.

[barneys66 122 1 Cars]

Thanks again folks.