Yet another XU9/10 engine build

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

A bit more gearbox progress yesterday, and one minor glitch. Photographs tell the story to date , but what they do not tell is my first attempt, when I got as far as bolting up the main casing ( hence traces of ‘Threebond 1211’ )  and then found reverse very difficult to engage . I decided that I had been  at home to Mr. Stupid and put reverse idler gear on upside down .Upper casing removed  and I had . I suppose I could have left it , as one side of the idler is worn where it engages on the synchroniser hub and the other isn’t , but then from new neither side would be worn. Anyway, done now and content with progress so far. 

On the engine front, the machine shop hopes to start next week, more parts ordered so when they arrive I will give an engine update .

[welshpug 1,657]

the reverse idler teeth are cut that way, they will only work the one way.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Thanks Mei. That explains why I could not select reverse, hence the disassembly to correct my mistake . Although and error, I assumed that , because the idler gear is straight cut, it would work either way. Clearly from your comment, that is not the case .

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

More progress. Main housing bolted up. All the bears behve themselves. 5th gear cover to install , followed by my shiny new Quaife ATB diff and the ‘box is complete 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Nearly finished. ATB installed. Just the clutch fork and arm to go and it is ready to hide under the bench for a few months 

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

Andy, have you checked the diff for clearance, sometimes they look to drop in ok but bind on the casing once you have torqued the cover up. Check it still rotates once you have put the cover on!

I will say that I can’t remember if it’s the Quaife ATB or Tranx plate diffs that do this, or both of them?

A small belt sander makes quick work of what is needed clearance wise, it’s only a small area.

[Biggles 65]

Pretty sure I had to relieve the casing a touch for my Tranx.

[jackherer 543]

I've heard that about plate diffs but I've fitted 3 or 4 Quaifes with no issues. It's worth a check though.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Thanks all. I did check. No clearance issues . In fact, lots of clearance. What did catch me out was reading the Manual and getting confused with the shim required to preload the taper bearings on the diff . I thought I must have mislayed it, but on fitting the speedo housing, I concluded that there was no way on God’s earth that a 1.5mm shim was going anywhere near the gap between the speedo housing and the diff casing. Clearly by the time Peugeot got around to the BE3 box they decided that their manufacturing of gearbox cases was consistent enough to preload with diff bearings just with the speedo housing .

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Engine update. After a long pause, engine work has made a small movement forward. My new ‘Sopertech’ 6mm stem valves have arrived and gone straight to the machine shop. New guides to be fitted , seats recut with throat mods to Guy Croft spec. Then back to me( and GC) for some light chamber work then back for a skim, then back to me for chamber cc measurement . I will get some photographs as the work progresses. 

On the gearbox front, the car I bought recently to replace the one that  got beaten up in a fight has, amongst other things, a fully rebuilt 1.9 box ( the previous owner paid a company in Salisbury £650 for the box) . The change and synchro are absolutely superb, but the final drive is way too high. Now the dilemma. I have  just fully rebuilt an Mi16 box ( see above ) . However, I also have a spare Mi16 crownwheel and pinion shaft and access to a diesel box. The 1.9 ratios are a touch closer than the Mi16 ones, so it has crossed my mind to strip the 1.9 box, put in the 4.4 pinion and crownwheel , use fifth from the diesel, swap over my brand new ATB diff and have close ratio 1st-4th box with a tall fifth for motorway driving and a known excellent synchro. . For my new engine , with PeterT solid cams, forged rods and pistons, 85mm liners , bodies and an Emerald , which would be the best box overall. ?

Feel free to comment . I am genuinely unsure 

[petert 586]

What retainers and collets are you using?

I wouldn’t make a decision until you strip the deisel box and count teeth. Hopefully it has that very desirable 0.81:1 5th gear.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Morning Peter,

 Thanks for the gearbox advice. When the diesel box arrives at the end of the month, I will look at 5th first . As for springs and collets, the collets that will fit are the single groove gti6 ones. I can then use gti6 caps. The springs could be a bit more of a challenge. From the looks of the dimensions of both the Gti6 cap and the internal and external measurements of the PAC s10011 springs that you have recommended in the past and I have used on two builds will fit. However, compared to the gti6 springs , they have significantly more installed seat  load at 37mm . I presume that Peugeot chose a lighter rated spring on the gti6 as the valve /follower was lighter, but that is a guess.. I have looked at beehive springs and a completely different cap and collets , but not yet found one with the correct dimensions .

 Back on the PAC springs, Guy Croft reckons that it is safer to err on the side of higher poundage springs rather than the other way , as his view is that weak springs are the best possible way to lose control of the valve -spring system at high rpm.  He would say that mind as he only builds competition engines that are often used in Motorsport ( albeit historic) 

Anyway, I am a little distance from that decision yet, although I do need to make it , or the head build will grind to a halt  .

I do hope that your riding is going well . I notice some Strava achievements so you are getting some KM in . In passing, I have been in touch with a man who lives in Perth and has a 205 with a new engine that will not start. In fact, I have spent several hours talking to him on Skype. A really odd problem with either an intermittent or no spark. Very hard to diagnose problems remotely and, although I got him to get a multimeter, he is not very confident in its use. ‘We’ have checked and measured voltages and continuity just about everywhere. I have looked at internal circuit diagrams for the ignition amp . He gets a 5hz pulse from the distributor at starter speed, a voltage of 12v on both sides of the coil when the ignition is on.A good supply and good earth on the ignition amp and continuity between the coil -ve, the tachymetric relay, Rev counter, ecu and amp, The coil will spark when I get him to make and break a connection between the coil -ve and earth, so the coil is good. Damn thing. I will think about is some more as I ride around some Derbyshire lanes this morning!

Andy

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

If it helps, you can use this spreadsheet to help understand and visualise the gearing differences between the various options....?

Edited July 19, 2018 by brumster

[petert 586]

Is 37mm the new installed height with the GTi6 valves & retainers?

 

Yes, it’s always better to err on more seat pressure then less. I’d still be aiming for 90lbs min on the seat, even with GTi6 valves.

 

The balance between bike, 205 and home life is a difficult one.

Edited July 19, 2018 by petert

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

First, thanks for the link to the spreadsheet. Second, I am guessing slightly at the installed height. It is lower than this on the gti6 Head, but I think on the Mi16 with the stem lengths I am using ( almost identical to the 7mm stemmed valves) , 37mm will be pretty close. I will not know until I measure , which is why I cannot finalise the springs until I have. I would prefer to use those PAC springs if I possibly can. 

As for balancing family, 205 and cycling, I have exactly the same dilemma. About to head south and spend a week with grandchildren, so just family and cycling, with the latter being squeezed in where I can .

 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

4 hours ago, brumster said:

If it helps, you can use this spreadsheet to help understand and visualise the gearing differences between the various options....?

Hi. Link does not seem to want to load?

 

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

It worked ok for me, although it does require MS Excel.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

1 minute ago, Tom Fenton said:

It worked ok for me, although it does require MS Excel.

That might explain it. I will try it on my desktop. 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

21 minutes ago, Andy said:

That might explain it. I will try it on my desktop. 

thank you . sorted.

 

[welshpug 1,657]

I'm using piper double spring with my standard gti6 valves and retainers, PH4 cam bouncing them, installed heights were all within Piper spec, so the 3 angle seat cutting must have been accurate, as well as the original spring seat machining

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

20 minutes ago, welshpug said:

I'm using piper double spring with my standard gti6 valves and retainers, PH4 cam bouncing them, installed heights were all within Piper spec, so the 3 angle seat cutting must have been accurate, as well as the original spring seat machining

Cheers for this. Is this in a GTi6 head or an Mi16 one, as the installed heights in the former are , I think, about 3mm less so would not work well in the latter 

[welshpug 1,657]

standard gti6 it is, bar the cut seats, no idea how much material was taken off but very little I would imagine

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

the snag with using the gti6 springs on the mi16 head is that the installed height to get the correct seat load is a couple of mm less on the gti6 head. If one used that height on the mi16, there would be problem with coil binding at full lift

[petert 586]

I did some investigation today. The PAC S10011 spring does fit well on the GTi6 retainer. That will certainly make life easy if the installed height is within range. If it goes the other way, the Supertech SPR-H1022D springs also fit on the GTi6 retainer but you'd need to spend money machining around the guides for new double spring bases.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

you are a star. I think that the outer diameter of the Pac s10011 spring is less than 0.5 mm in diameter larger than the gti6 retainer outer diameter. Your research confirms it. Pac springs are top of my list provided I can get close to 37mm installed. My previous research on the supertech valves I have and the gti6 collets and retainers makes me pretty confident. At Silverstone today watching the Historic racing and wandering around the pits looking at automotive porn. Tough day but I will cope somehow