205 V6 Owners Or Drivers - Owned/driven Other Front Heavy Fwd?

[Kambo 9]

Just trying to work out with all the 'front heavy' chat I've come across on a search about v6 swaps are they actually that front heavy compared with other swaps done with other FWD cars?

 

I guess its a generic thing with all makes some people will lump in the bigger and heavier engines just for the sake of it so taking into account we are not all racing drivers that know how to drive on the limit but from a drive-ability point of view are they that bad/good?

 

Thankings in advance

Edited November 4, 2017 by Kambo

[Kambo 9]

Sorry forgot to mention I’ve currently got a front heavy FWD (engine swap) so I’m used to that side of tings but again I don’t drive my car to it’s limits, it’s a road not track day car and I’ve driven it abroad and it is driveable, can be a menance if you want it to be but otherwise it’s absolutely fine etc so I’m more interested in if the V6 swaps are drive able in stop start traffic etc not just straight line stuff

 

Thanks

[welshpug 1,666]

I've helped build a few ES9 engined vehicles, 3 205's with my friend George ( Goliath ) a 306 Rallye with AdamB and a little bit of help with a 405 GL with George and his friend Matt.

 

Unfortunately I never got to drive the 405 as I think it would have suited that chassis brilliantly, its basis is very close to the 406 so its not quite as complex to fit but the general principles are all the same, all the engine mounting points are in the same places as a 205 and 306.

 

As a daily driven vehicle they are awesome, I've done a few thousand miles with George across europe to Austra in a fairly short space of time, MPG was far better than you'd imagine a 200 bhp 3.0 car would be, but as its fairly long geared comparatively (155mph+) and they have such a broad band of torque (200 lbft peak) that they are really unstressed when cruising in 5th at 80 odd for hours (we calculated a rough 40 mpg)

 

use a standard clutch and get the hydraulic actuation right and they're fine in traffic.

 

 

you really only notice the extra mass up front right on the limit, or if you have tired dampers, I'm not sure what the weight penalty is but the bare engine itself is not too bad at all, but everything bolted to it is, flywheel i something like 8.5-9 kilos and its a big old clutch, the box is a good 10-15 kilos heavier than a BE box, driveshafts are beefy old things, then you have two cast exhaust manifolds and a large set of downpipes.

 

 

as a point and squirt A&B road overtaker they are hilarious.

[wicked 105 3 Cars]

I've driven a 205 v6 once, including winding roads. The engine is absolutely fantastic, but it is imho too heavy on the front and I would never use one on a 205. Note that the v shape of the engine will move the centre of gravity more to the front, compared to 4 cylinder engine.

Think it will suite a 306 perfectly.

[Kambo 9]

Cheers guys that was very helpful and pretty much what I was thinking

 

I’m looking around for the ES9J4 earlier lump and would prefer a donor car but I may have to go hunting for bits n bobs instead as I don’t really have room now to break a car

 

Am I right I’m thinking the popular ones are from 406 coupe up to 2000 and Renault Lagunas marked as LX7?

 

Just incase I get a donor, all I need is? Engine, box, driveshafts, unlocked ecu and complete wiring loom? Sounds right?

 

I don’t think engines will be a problem but what code is the gearbox I need?

 

Welshpug - is that Goliath you mention? I’m following his build (dam photobucket!) and I think he went on the ‘ring retro run on the year I missed! Been going from 2009 to 2012 bar one year I think

 

One thing that does worry me is a lot of the v6 builds are a few years back now, one or two are more recent but nothing immediate, are some of the parts I’ve read on the earlier topics still available from ‘thirdtimelucky’ and ‘Ade’, stuff like custom mounts, someone to shorten driveshafts and perhaps sort the loom?

 

Thanks

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Heat is the biggest issue, push hard for long on track and unless you have very good cooling you won;t do many laps, Even in my 406 when I had it, 1/2 lap round the ring or 3 laps at Combe and that would be it. Never liked them in 205's as they don;t fit neatly, 309 and above it can look factory. Just a shame they hang down to low.

In a 309 they are spot on as well,

[Kambo 9]

Miles - do you do any conversion parts for this or did you just fabricate everything yourself?

 

Also, I recently bought some base hubs from you (eBay) have you got any 1.9 hubs by any chance as it looks like I won’t be needing them now, thanks

[Anthony 1,003]

I don't own a 205 V6, but I have driven and been passenger in a few.

 

In terms of manners in traffic and so on, it's absolutely fine and drives like any other 205 on modern management (ie better than the standard Jetronic setup). Performance is very good as you'd expect, any revs and any gear it just goes, and even traction (in the dry atleast) didn't seem an issue on standard road tyres either, probably in part due to the linear delivery.

 

However, the weight is very noticeable when cornering to the point I felt it fundamentally changes how the car drives/feels, not just at the limit but at anything even approaching brisk. I'm sure that it could be countered somewhat with appropriate suspension changes, but on the ones I've driven with standard-ish suspension the front end felt very inert, ponderous and unwilling to turn in and change direction, to the point that if you tried to drive it like a standard GTi you just ended up frustrated fighting against it. Not driven one on track, but certainly twisty roads and even roundabouts show that extra weight up.

 

Before committing to V6'ing a 205 I'd strongly suggest seeing if you can get a drive in one. I can certainly see how the effortless performance and soundtrack would appeal, but for me, the trade-off in the way it drives would be too much.

 

Mind you, I know I'm a fussy sod with how a 205 drives and didn't like the impact the weight even a GTi-6 conversion had on a GTi, and think that a 205 XS with a featherlight TU is utterly sublime to thread down a twisty road with how nimble and eager to change direction it is (hell, a standard GTi feels almost nose-heavy compared to one of those!)

[jackherer 543]

I've not driven a 205 with a V6 but I've had loads of cars with it fitted by the factory, Citroen C5s and Xantias as well as 406 estates, coupes etc. and the only one that felt nose heavy was the Xantia which really suffered badly. I think as Anthony has suggested the suspension setup is critical, get it right and it will drive well but I can see how that would change the character completely.

[Anthony 1,003]

I've not driven a 205 with a V6 but I've had loads of cars with it fitted by the factory, Citroen C5s and Xantias as well as 406 estates, coupes etc. and the only one that felt nose heavy was the Xantia which really suffered badly. I think as Anthony has suggested the suspension setup is critical, get it right and it will drive well but I can see how that would change the character completely.

Slightly off-topic... I always wondered how the V6 Activa we didn't get in the UK drove - the 2.0T Activa I always found hugely impressive how it mixed a supple ride with a cornering on rails ability, so if they could disguise the weight the V6 must have been a brilliant package.

[jackherer 543]

I'd love to try one, I've had a 2.0T Activa as well as a V6 so I have definitely thought about it a lot!

[Kambo 9]

the only one that felt nose heavy was the Xantia which really suffered badly

Xantias and 406’s have pretty much the same wheelbase and length don’t they, are they the same platform?

 

Unless it’s a weight thing

[jackherer 543]

I think it was probably easier for them to recalibrate the springs and dampers on the 406 to suit the extra mass compared to the Xantia's spheres. Especially as the non-Activa Xantia V6 was RHD (and possibly UK) only, they probably just didn't put much effort into it.

[Kambo 9]

they probably just didn't put much effort into it

Citreon, no ????

[welshpug 1,666]

Citreon, no ????

who?

[Kambo 9]

I was gonna spell it starting with s and ending with t but that’ll do

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

I was gonna spell it starting with s and ending with t but thatll do

?? Swankiest.

[Kambo 9]

Yeah maybe take out the s

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

And a Sump guard, It's the main negative point for me, sump and downpipes sit well below the subframe so ground out with ease.

[Kambo 9]

Before committing to V6'ing a 205 I'd strongly suggest seeing if you can get a drive in one. I can certainly see how the effortless performance and soundtrack would appeal, but for me, the trade-off in the way it drives would be too much.

 

I did that with my current swap, was a passenger for a bit then he very kindly let me have a little drive

 

Handling, road holding, yeah I didn't really get all of that, all I knew was YES I want one

 

Was a bit pointless really

[Kambo 9]

Thanks for the replies guys it really does help, the general theme I'm getting is

 

Engine bay can't really contain the big lump neatly

Miles hates them in 205's

Extra weight more noticeable if you know how to drive on limit

Miles hates them as they overheat easier if pushed hard

Poor suspension setup will show up even if mildy taking corners or trying to have fun with roundabouts

Miles really doesn't like them in 205's

Too much overhang, upper hang, underhang every which way you hang

5 gears but really only 4 usable gears

 

To be honest this all sounds ok

 

Its pretty much what I was expecting but I've pretty much got all this at the moment, running a classic mini with a 2.0 b series honda lump up front, its untuned at 200hp with 150 tq on skinny tyres for stealth, its a jekyll and hyde drive, it can hurt you and pleasure you in a single drive

 

4 inch is the minimum clearance I have underneath, car isn't lowered and it hasn't scraped so far and seems to clear high kerbs ok - just, even clears the top of the test hill at brooklands and that is sharp I can't see the V6 swap having low hangs like that unless seriously lowered

 

5 speed box but 1st can become useless and/or fun spin if pushed hard from standstill but still usable, seems the V6 is the same

 

I haven't really come across a time out on the road where I felt it was nose heavy, it is nose heavy but I never go looking for it, it can get pretty frantic in the office chair with all the noise and vibration so I've always got something else distracting me

 

Cooling wise, well had this issue with mine with next to nothing room, no cowling and not much ram air hitting whatever surface area of the rad it could find, still have all the above and the heat in the bay is ridiculously hot (measured with laser pointer) as it can't escape, everything hot to touch inc the bonnet but engine cools fine, there are ways round so doesn't really concern me. M25 jams in summer, ring laps (never done more than two consecutive) motorway runs abroad to standstill traffic it handles it fine

 

Engine is all ally so this is really the difference in dissapating heat and overall weight, weight is around 167kg, box is about 41kg so 208 kg in total, car weight is standard all interior everything so anything between 700kg and 800kg. Not sure on the 205 or V6 weight, obviously both will be more but it might just be horses for courses given the difference between the two cars

 

All in all I can't really see this being much different from what I've got apart from climbing the rev counter more effortlessly and more notable tone coming out the back, also the wider track and slightly longer wheelbase will help from what I'm used to or again horses for courses as you lose what you gain

 

I've managed to source a V6 conversion bar a couple of bits so its definitely going ahead but it also means I can get started sooner rather than later. I'll bag up my 1.9 lump as its inevitable it'll be going back in as thats what happens. The mini will be reverted back to standard later in life

 

I can track mine (I have) but its not what it was built for, its a mileage muncher but giggles along the way and I think this will be the same, as welshpug said its a pointer and squirter

Edited November 7, 2017 by Kambo

[ade 4wd 11]

My 205 V6.

[jackherer 543]

more notable tone coming out the back

and the front, the induction noise from these is definitely 'notable'.

[welshpug 1,666]

yeah they certainly dont need a bit cannon hanging out the back, just a magnex and a k&n will suffice.

 

actually noticed a difference on the 306 when it had a longer intake pipe off a subaru with a bug filter on the end of it rather than straight on the throttle body.

[Kambo 9]

Photo-0139.jpg

My 205 V6.

Thats what I like to see, a fully packed bay

 

Ade - is it you who does conversion looms for this? I thought I came across your name on a search