Motoronic Distributor Oil Leak

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

I have a motronic 1.3 set up on my 1FM and this has a dizzy which is non adjustable. I had a small oil leak from what seemed to be the dizzy so I changed the O ring seal but it seems to still be there, but coming from more like the middle of the dizzy body. Looking at it more, it seems that the dizzy casting does have a split in it and some torx bolts holding it together (though I am not in front of it at the moment to get a picture).

 

Has anyone taken one of these apart? Is there a double oil seal in these?

 

Just thinking ahead before taking it apart

[DamirGTI 342]

Yes , there's an "labyrinth" seal between the dizzy shaft and the body/housing .. haven't tried replacing one myself , there's no part No. for the said seal thus I dunno where to find/buy an replacement .

 

For the seal replacement you need to knock out the roll pin off the dizzy drive cog which is not as simple as it seems .. at least not for me ! , tried and failed .

 

To be honest I'd leave that to the guys at H&H .

 

D

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

There indeed is a sort of a seal in there. Mine was cracked as well. Ended up opening two DKZ dizzies and taking the best seals of both and used them to salvage one of the distributors.

 

Getting the pin out is easy, it is a matter of supporting the part that falls into the slot in the camshaft with piece of wood so the dizzy lies flat on a workbench. A good drift and hammer will to the rest. Pay attention prior to disassembly to which way around the excenter is fitted in relation to the rotor.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Worth seeing if H&H have spares maybe, if you get stuck I found a spare one today

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

Worth seeing if H&H have spares maybe,

 

I am interested in finding those seals as well, so if they can supply those seals please let us know in this topic.

[welshpug 1,661]

what are the dimensions of the seal?

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Cheers for the responses. If I am asking H&H for a seal, they will ask for a dizzy number. I am assuming it is Bosch but I know there are loads of different numbers. Anyone know what a DKZ one is? Is it marked on the unit somewhere (not looked in real detail myself yet).

Miles, I am assuming you have a spare dizzy, not just a seal.

I could see some exploded diagrams on servicebox but no additional seals, so I guess it isn't a peugeot part; new dizzy time at a dealers.

I have attached a pic of the leak on mine for future reference

[welshpug 1,661]

they are all stamped with a number yes.

[petert 588]

I'll be keen to see how you go with this. I was always under the impression the labyrinth seal was non-replaceable. The only solution being you need to bore out the seal/body and fit an aftermarket lip type seal. Good luck, because there are a limited number of good distributors left and a solution is needed.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

Cheers for the responses. If I am asking H&H for a seal, they will ask for a dizzy number. I am assuming it is Bosch but I know there are loads of different numbers. Anyone know what a DKZ one is?

 

DKZ has a Ducellier dizzy, not a Bosch unit.

 

@PeterT, I honestly didn't see anything remotely labyrinth-like at those seals. They looked more like a plastic washer. (only more brittle, but that could be the age)

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

I had to google Labyrinth seal to see what made them special, and it is a non rubber, two mtetal seal with a lot of grooves in it and designed not to wear out: https://www.gmnbt.com/labyrinth-seals.htm

So i would be surprised if they have worn out

 

Any pics Thijs from when you took one apart?

 

Miles, let me know what you want for the dizzy you have as it may give me an excuse to take mine apart if I swap it over.

 

Are they common to any other cars?

 

Oh and finally managed to attach a pic in the earlier post which was taken with a mirror reflecting under the dizzy to show the drip at the bottom.

[welshpug 1,661]

they would wear if the bearing for the shaft they run on has worn if my understanding of them is correct.

[hoodygoodwood 71 3 Cars]

I had my Goodwood ( so XU9JA ) distributor refurbed by H+H , before I sent it there was oil coming through the internal seal as the insides of the dizzy were soaked . The centre spindle would spin freely with no resistance as the seal was obviously perished . The refurbed dizzy came back looking like new and the spindle now had a stiffer feel when spun so whatever they had fitted inside was now gripping the shaft - no more internal leaks since fitting it .

I would be surprised if they sold the seal separately as this would hit their refurb market .

It came fitted with a new rotor arm , dizzy cap and vacuum advance capsule - all unbranded non Bosch items .

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

 

In the pictures are all the faces where the seal runs, a few pictures of the seal (as well as the broken one). The seal looks slightly warped. Could be the age, could be the design.

 

The dimensions are: OD 25,25 mm, ID 10,05 mm, 0,85 mm thick. These seals have been in operation for 340.000 km, so I think they used to be around 1 mm thick. The broken one was 0,95 mm thick on the "thick" side which hasn't had much running contact. Measured them with a vernier caliper since I was too lazy to search my micrometer.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Thijs_Rallye

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Brilliant pics Thijs. Many thanks for these. So it seems like there is no labyrinth seal, but a small (fibrous / brass?) seal which is more like a washer.

 

Based on what Miles Hood said, it seems like if there is no friction, then the seal is not sealing.

 

I wonder if the seal is generic to all the Ducellier distributors (those with and without vac advance capsules), so it is possible to cannibalise one of those to repair an XU9JAZ one. Perhaps it is the same seal as used in a Bosch distributor as the shaft seems to be the same width as the rotor arm (are these dizzy dependent fitment?)

 

Once I get a part number, I'll ring up H&H and see if they sell the seals as it seems very simple to refurbish:

1. Dizzy off,
2. Cap off
3. Rotor arm out
4. Rotor arm end cap off (3 torx screws)
5. Rest cam interface adapter lobes on a piece of wood
6. Mark position of cam Interface adapter to shaft (to make sure it goes back on the right way or rotor arm will be 180 degrees out)
7. Drift out roll pin
8. Remove cam interface adapter
9. Slide out dizzy drive shaft
10. Replace seal / washer
11. Rebuild in reverse of the above.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

It is indeed more a fibrous kind of material. It feels "rough" to the touch.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Boring the casing out to fit a proper lip seal looks a better idea to me, if there is enough room to do so.

That flat washer looks more like a thrust washer than a seal. The scroll on the shaft should be a good enough fit in the bush in the housing to keep oil back when its running.

From past experience I wouldn't trust H&H with the distributor off a lawnmower.

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

So I had a look on the dizzy and it has the part number of 2525709AF2 and DTR04 stamped on the top. With this info, I rang up H&H too see what they could offer. I said it was a Ducellier dizzy from a 205 GTI but they didn't ask me any part numbers. They said that dizzy doesn't have any oil seals in it, so if oil was getting in the dizzy then it would be from somewhere else, which I found a bit hard to believe. They did say that there was a washer in there though, but when I asked if they had them, they hadn't, nor did they know of anywhere where I could get one from. At this point I said that if they can't get the parts then there was no point sending it to them for a refurb, to which they suggested looking for a second hand one. I think if it was on their workshop bench though they would probably be able to do something with it.

 

Miles is hopefully sourcing me another one so I can take one apart. A friend of mine thinks that it may be some kind of bakerlite / plastic / carbon seal and can potentially turn one up in a lathe so we can see if that would cure it.

 

Searching round the internet, I can't find any other car which has this dizzy part number. I am sure it must be on a Citroen (Welshpug?!!) or possibly a 405. It wouldn't surprise me if a Renault also had one. Was it only Cat cars which had a Ducellier dizzy and all the others were Bosch / Lucas etc (with a hole in the side for the vac advance)? Then when you look at the design of the rotor arm end of the shaft, you can see that it is the same internal diameter as the washer. Do Bosch dizzys have the same design? Will a washer from one of those fit a Ducellier dizzy?

 

Tom, you reckon the scroll on the shaft is designed to generate enough reverse flow against the oil pressure to keep the shaft lubricated and the oil from reaching the washer? Therefore if oil is flowing past, then the scroll may be blocked / shaft or housing worn? The lip seal idea sounds sensible if there is enough meat in the casting for it. If the ID is 10.05mm, what is the minimum OD size lip seal you can get? I assume that the thrust washer may still be needed to sit over the lip seal, so you would have to step what you bore out to get a shoulder for the washer to seat on.

 

It has turned into a curiosity question now! Internet engineering! I'm trying to keep this as original as I can though as it is on my 1FM, so I don't want to swap to putting a coil pack on there etc.

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

All cars with a DKZ (XU9JAZ) engine have this Ducellier dizzy. So with a ph.1 405 or BX you should be right on the money.

 

I can't tell you if the Bosch dizzy has a similar seal. If I come across one in my shed I'll have a look but I can't promise anything .

[DamirGTI 342]

405 ph1 1.6 1.9 carb engines had ducellier dizzy as well as base model 205 with 1.0/1.1 engines , 309 also .. renaults also had them , something like r 11 , 19 , fuego etc.

Older 80's citroën peugeot and renaults with carb or jetronic injection should have either bosch or ducellier dizzy ..

 

Note these the will be mechanical distributors , so not a 'hollow' type like the DKZ item , if you want it for spares .. even an mechanical dizzy will work as an replacement as you won't be using the mechanical advance anyway on a motronic car .

 

 

D

Edited September 9, 2017 by DamirGTI

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Opening up an old topic again as I still have not got to the bottom of this and a Facebook post triggered my interest.

 

I might brave talking to H&H again, but surely there must be some other people who have the spares

[camgti 56]

A few guys in OZ have been doing what PeterT is saying with the Lip seal. It seems the only solution moving forward. I have to do the same on my car as it leaking now also. 
 

Ill be doing it over the winter while its stored and will happily share how I get on or if it works. 
 

Cam

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Good news.  I sent the dizzy off to H&H Ignitions an they pressed out the pin at the bottom for £10 and supplied and fitted the new seal for £3.50.  it seems to have stopped the leak

 

I had a go at tapping out the pin on the base but it was in tight and I didn't want to damage the casing or the key onto the cam, so £10 seemed cheap.

 

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

On 8/12/2021 at 3:41 PM, camgti said:

A few guys in OZ have been doing what PeterT is saying with the Lip seal

Are there pictures available ?

 

 

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

The lip seal is what they fitted as I got a spare one sent to me (in the front of the picture).  It was the 10mm shaft from memory