Project Pug Part Ii (Vtr Engine Conversion)

[Arwing 3 1 Cars]

You may or may not be aware that i've not been able to start my 205 after it was left standing for 3 years as i backpacked the world. Click here to see post.

 

Even if i could get the car started again, i know the head gasket and valve stem seals need doing. Also, the clutch began slipping in 2nd and 3rd during the final months i drove it. So i thought the easiest and cheapest option was to put in a new engine. I've now bought a Citroen Saxo VTR. The car is rotten underneath (hence the reduced price i paid) but the engine and bodywork seem fine. From what i've read, the VTR engine will fit in the 205 using the original engine mounts. I also understand the 205 driveshafts fit into the Saxo gearbox. And lastly, that the 205 exhaust fits at the Saxo's downpipe.

 

I'm going in to this project with a lot of unknowns. So any tips or suggestions would be highly appreciated. My immediate concerns are.....

Can i change just the block? or the entire engine?

Does it matter my 205 is a 1.4 single point injection and the Saxo is a 1.6 injection?

My 205 is non ABS. The Saxo has ABS (according to the previous owner it's an uncommon ABS model).

Weight (will i need different shocks on the front of the 205 to compensate)

Not interested in keeping the VTR's power steering or air con.

ECU and loom (wiring) is my biggest concern.

 

The Peugeot is a 1991 phase 2 205 GT 1.4 (TU engine?). The Citroen is a 1998 Mk 1 Saxo VTR 1.6.

 

We've all heard of 50 shades of grey. Well like most 205's, mine is 50 shades of red. So over the spring / summer i'm respraying panels (grill, bonnet, roof) and touching up the bodywork and interior. Once that's done, i'll begin on the engine. The Saxo drives, so i'll take it round the block now and again to keep it ticking over and to give any potential problems the chance to surface.

 

I'll update this thread with work as it progresses. Although with a week of rain forecast, the spraying is going to have to wait. I hope to do the engine conversion myself. Although the wiring/loom is way beyond my skill set.

 

VTR and 205 together

 

 

 

205 engine

 

 

 

VTR engine

 

​

[jackherer 543]

Even if you are not going to use it you should take the PAS pump off of the Saxo because someone will want it.

[Anthony 1,003]

Isn't that carb rather than injection? Certainly looks it from the mechanical fuel pump, and I don't think the SPI stuff came about until catalysts were required. I think your GT should still be a TU3S engine at that age.

 

If so, you need to factor in converting the car to injection as well - fuel lines, pump, tank and wiring changes needed. Standard 205 GTi parts would suffice, harder and more costly to source these days though.

 

Saxo being ABS should make no odds, nor does PAS - although as above, it has value if it works.

 

Wiring shouldn't be too difficult, although being a carb based car, it's different to GTi models in terms of the car wiring (everything goes via the engine bay loom on this). Remember to unlock the ECU before removing!

 

I'll let someone more clued up than me on TU's comment on the finer points of the engine swap itself and what needs to be retained from the 205 side - I would assume that you use would largely use the complete VTR engine setup though. I don't know how interchangeable MA boxes are, but the ratios of the XS/GT gearbox are shorter and more "fun" than the long-geared VTR gearbox, IMO anyway.

[Arwing 3 1 Cars]

Isn't that carb rather than injection? Certainly looks it from the mechanical fuel pump, and I don't think the SPI stuff came about until catalysts were required. I think your GT should still be a TU3S engine at that age.

 

If so, you need to factor in converting the car to injection as well - fuel lines, pump, tank and wiring changes needed. Standard 205 GTi parts would suffice, harder and more costly to source these days though.

 

Saxo being ABS should make no odds, nor does PAS - although as above, it has value if it works.

 

Wiring shouldn't be too difficult, although being a carb based car, it's different to GTi models in terms of the car wiring (everything goes via the engine bay loom on this). Remember to unlock the ECU before removing!

 

I'll let someone more clued up than me on TU's comment on the finer points of the engine swap itself and what needs to be retained from the 205 side - I would assume that you use would largely use the complete VTR engine setup though. I don't know how interchangeable MA boxes are, but the ratios of the XS/GT gearbox are shorter and more "fun" than the long-geared VTR gearbox, IMO any

 

A garage i always took it too used to always say it was a single point injection, which i never understood as you can clearly see it's a carb. Non CAT yes. Looking in the Haynes manual, the TU3S engine looks identical to mine in the photo. While the Saxo starts and runs fine, there is an issue with the alarm. Apparently alarm/immobiliser issues on saxo's are common so will be removing the immobiliser box and unlocking the ECU as you suggested. One of the reasons i bought the whole car as opposed to just an engine is so i had everything from both cars. Rather than buy a VTR engine then trying to source an ECU/loom/other components. As i said, i'll be focusing on bodywork (spraying) over the summer. I won't actually be doing anything regarding the engine until later. But the more i can find out about it, the better i can prepare for when the time does come. So it looks as though the biggest job is going to be changing the fuel system on the 205 to cope with the VTR's fuel injection system. I wonder how many parts are interchangable from the saxo to the 205 in that area?

[johniban 59 1 Cars]

Personally having had a base model 205 with a VTR engine in i wouldn't bother, unless your looking at tuning it, as a standard engine its really unimpressive.

Have you looked into fitting the VTS engine instead? plenty of poke with just fitting an exhaust manifold.

 

If using the MA gearbox, base model driveshafts fit although you'll need a different inner CV for the nearside shaft otherwise it will leak oil.

 

Wiring is pretty easy, just get two haynes manuals, one 205 one saxo and follow wiring, youll need to source a 12v feed for the coil pack and fuel pump/injectors that always there even when cranking, i had alot of head scratching with that.

[johniban 59 1 Cars]

You'll need a return fuel system witch your 205 doesn't have so really you need a tank and pump from a 205 gti, fuel lines you've got a number or choices, braided, teflon, high pressure rubber ect.

[dobboy 231 2 Cars]

I was thinking the same ^, don't bother with the hassle for a VTR. Get a VTS, also it might be easier if you can get an early VTS single plug loom, rather than the later 3-plug loom (2001 onwards iirc).

 

But if it was me, and you were happy with the car before, i'd take the engine out and do the HG, head, and swap the clutch over. No matter what you do you'll be wanting to do timing belt, and water pump anyway, no matter what engine/repairs get put back in.

[johniban 59 1 Cars]

I agree, if its faster you are after go for the 16v

 

If its just because your current engine is knakard, strip it down see whats going on

[Arwing 3 1 Cars]

It's a bit late to change my mind now. I've already bought the VTR

 

A VTR was much easier and cheaper to pick up than a VTS anyway. I'll more than make my money back selling the lights, bumpers trim and other parts. Plus i have a spare set of alloys for the 205 now, should i ever need them. And as you can see from the photo, it's a nice clean engine. It's actually a very clean car, just not underneath. Also, many Saxo owners tell me the 8v VTR engine is stronger than the 16v VTS. Don't know if there's any truth in that? I know on paper the power output on a VTR isn't much different to a 205 GT/XS and IS under powered for a 1.6 generally. But when i drove the VTR back after buying it, i was impressed. It pulled nice and was very nippy. Mostly thanks to the good old power to weight ratio no doubt. I'm not looking for speed exactly and am more than happy with how the VTR drove. Even when my 205 was running, it had no guts in it. Maybe it's just old and tired? I will miss the manual choke though. Loved that.

 

Appreciate the comments. I have a clearer idea of what i need for this project now. Guess i should post in the "Wanted" section for a GTI fuel tank and pump now then.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Arwing

[welshpug 1,657]

85 bhp alloy tu vs the 23kg heavier 90 bhp iron block is no contest for me, I'd break the saxo and use the cash to get your tu3s refreshed.

[calvinhorse 870]

Xs head on vtr bottom end!

[ishan 5]

I've actually done this conversion myself on a 1.4 SPI GTX using the 1.6 VTR single plug engine. Its pretty easy once if you work methodically. Wiring guide below;

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=162446

 

The only other thing to mention is to do with the passenger side driveshaft if your using the VTR box. You will need to put the Saxo inner CV joint onto the 205 driveshaft.

 

Any questions let me know.

[Arwing 3 1 Cars]

I've actually done this conversion myself on a 1.4 SPI GTX using the 1.6 VTR single plug engine. Its pretty easy once if you work methodically. Wiring guide below;

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=162446

 

The only other thing to mention is to do with the passenger side driveshaft if your using the VTR box. You will need to put the Saxo inner CV joint onto the 205 driveshaft.

 

Any questions let me know.

Thanks for the advice Ishan. That wiring guide will surely come in handy too. Thanks again.