Xmt - Sarty's Xsara GTI6 Turbo

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Cheers Andy. Same bits per the text please. No real rush on the bits, to suit you and Steve really. Gotta get an engine hoist and start XU7 removal.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Righto. Will do . I will keep you posted

[Putte205 4]

I havent seen any planing on how to be able to use the engine yet i think? Low down torque and power is great, but what's your plan for clutch, gearbox/diff and driveshafts? 300bhp is quite easily achieved, but to really be able to use all of that power isn't very easy on the drivetrain

Edited October 24, 2017 by Putte205

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You're quite correct; no real thought on those bits yet. But I'm sure I can research on here (or people will volunteer the info) on which clutch would be best.

 

I'm thinking the standard driveshafts will be OK but may need renewal once or twice a year. Gearbox should be OK strength wise, and I hear my current ratios will be usable; we'll see.

 

LSD is a must I think, and I'd likely use a plate diff again.

 

Finally, perhaps a la Project Bink, perhaps a charge cooler in line with the radiator might be an option instead of an intercooler. It's probably just a question of space in the engine bay, however I'd be interested to hear of recommendations/benefits of both approaches.

Edited October 24, 2017 by DrSarty

[petert 586]

So we're back on pistons again? Aren't they the limiting factor? If you're using DFW pistons, surely you won't be able to boost any more than say 10 psi which will limit hp/torque anyway and the size of the intercooler needed (if any).

 

If you have a decent ecu you'll be able to incorporate electronic boost control, which you can use to limit boost in lower gears and throttle openings.

[Kane 34]

If the standard internals do end in the engine going pop and you rebuild it with forged items it may be worth considering upgrading your box to an ME/ML at this stage.

 

Slight weight penalty over the BE but more security with regards to strength of components.

 

Alternatively I see a number of people on here have had some success running an oil cooler solely for the gearbox. Worth a thought to save the hassle of changing out the box should it let go on your first outing.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Kane

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

So we're back on pistons again? Aren't they the limiting factor? If you're using DFW pistons, surely you won't be able to boost any more than say 10 psi which will limit hp/torque anyway and the size of the intercooler needed (if any).

 

 

What's so bad about the pistons? I don't think I've seen many OEM pistons fail (under boost) and if they did, it was due to knock, caused by incorrect mapping of the engine.

 

The size of the intercooler is more related to the efficiency of your turbo. If you run a turbo on it's max, it will turn into a hair dryer...

But in a Xsara there must be more than enough room for a proper intercooler, given that people can also squeeze it into a 205...

 

Clutch options:

- Helix 215mm

- Helix 230mm on 206 fly

- OMP 215mm

 

I would stick to the BE box for now; fit LSD, avoid clutch dumps and be gentle with the 5th gear and it will last longer.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I find 'only 300bhp' quite funny. Not disrespecting here as I know you know your stuff.

 

 

I wasn't really having a go at you, but some of the options seem to be a bit "complicated" if there is a possibility of just putting a thicker head gasket on a standard engine. At least for the 1.9 Mi16 with DFW pistons that is a decent possibility, and probably valid for some other engines too with not too high base-compression.

 

Also if done in combination with some reworking of the combustion chambers it might actually be a cheap and efficient option compared to faffing about with different parts from lots of engines.

 

I understand that "only 300" bhp can seem a bit "funny" but in todays tuning that is more or less what it is. But of course if you like a lot of boost low down in the rev-range you must chose a small/medium sized turbo and apply lots of boost in the lower rev-range where the engine might be more suspicious to detonation. So a compression of 8.5:1 is probably a good target for such a setup.

 

For my T16 I went 9.2:1 and a bigger turbo, it comes on a bit slower, but that saves the drivetrain a bit more. I have run 1.6 bar boost on the 9.2:1 with 87mm bore, still safe fuelling and ignition settings, but car started to "fly".

[petert 586]

 

What's so bad about the pistons?

Being a strutted, cast piston, they aren't in the same league as a modern eutectic or forged piston. So long as you're aware of their limitations they're fine. A local DFW powred off-road racer ran them very successfully at 12psi.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Right. You have had more advice , opinion and ideas than you can shake a stick at. So here is my experience , albeit of the Fiat/Lancia 16v turbo as found in the Integrale ( had three over twelve years) . Anyway, in my last one, I did some interesting development work with Guy Croft and a company called RP labs who specialised in ecu work. In particular, they produced some hardware and software upgrades for the Marelli P6 ecu that was fitted to all Integrales after 1988.The are a serious piece of kit and with the RP labs upgrades, extremely serious. Only snag is that only about three places in the uk can access the bespoke software and map. So I had a long trip to Blackpool to Motorsports Developments who are an RP labs agent.

Where is this all going you ask, whilst trying to stay awake. Guy and I wanted to see what the standard Integrale engine (210bhp) would produce with just head and management mods. So, bottom end was completely as God and Lancia intended, complete with cast pistons, the wonderful F/L nitrided crank ( yes, standard, but utterly impossible to regrind) and standard 8.5:1 compression ratio,. Guy did a job on the head with all the usual stuff so that it flowed as well as it could still using standard valves . In the meantime, I worked on the loom, engine management , fuel supply( surge pot, dual pumps) oil supply and cooling, inter cooling etc. In other words, spent more on the installation than I did on the engine. Engine management from the mighty P6 included full wastegate control, over boost management etc. Turbo, manifolds standard but the exhaust system was 75mm stainless . . . So what did it produce. ? 274bhp at 6000 rpm. The mapper as MSD was ultra keen to spin it up to 6500rpm but I had imposed a6000rpm rev limit ( standard bottom end) . He was confident it would easily have made 300 bhp had I allowed him to go on. At the point he stopped, the Power was still climbing and the torque was flatter than the Cambridgeshire fens. Boost began at 2400rpm ( and remember that this turbo was a standard out of the arc Garret T3 , and not very big to boot) .

To drive , it was an absolute dream and stone reliable. The new owner of this car ( sob) who has now had it for nearly 4 years uses it hard and has not put a spanner to it in all that time, except to change the wonderful Recarro seats for some nasty Evo 1 ones( he has an ‘ample fundament’

And the point of all this? The F/l 2.0litre 16v engine is remarkably similar to the Peugeot Xu10j4( with or without the RS) . You are going for the best flowing head you can lay your hands on, a modern turbo( do not go mad on compressor size. You want it to spool up from low rpm) . Standard bits will cope, whatever bottom end you use as long as you are not power greedy( and you are not). But, and this is, in my humble opinion, very important, engine management and power unit installation are critical both to reliability and output, not to mention whether you end up with a car which is nice to drive because you are not endlessly worrying about fuel pressure, or oil temperature etc. . Be prepared to spend more on all this than you do on the engine . And that includes good instrumentation , oil, air and water cooling, fuel managemt ( I would go for a swirl pot every day of the week with the in- tank pump used as a lift pump and a Bosch motorsport pump taking care of the injection from the swirl pot.

Sermon over. ‘This is merely my experience . I am not a motor engineer ( o.k at quantum electrodynamics and high energy particle Physics but bugger all else) , so please take ( or leave ) my views with however much salt you prefer.

Yours,

Andy

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Oh you guys!

 

I think the DFWs will be fine at about 9:1 static CR with 1bar or just under boost, from my lovely IHI VF38 Legacy GT twin-scroll turbo. Some people seem to have forgotten I've already got my snail.

 

Why do people keep referring to an intercooler i.e. air to air, presumably in preference to a charge cooler (air to water)? Is one 'better' than the other? Perhaps the IC has simpler plumbing?

 

I'll build one of these in either way, but which type and what's the reasoning pls? E.g. does one choose a CC if they can't fit a suitable IC?

[speno 239 2 Cars]

Buy a 1.1 micra it will solve all your problems;0)

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hi Speno. Sorry about the pistons; someone should really snap them up!

 

And ref your comment, I have no 'problems'. This is design discussion with the usual project limitations of budget, time and quality. If it were easy, it wouldn't be a project, especially if one is pushing one or more of those factors such as wanting amazing quality for no cash, and tomorrow!

 

I'm not constrained by time (apart from the obvious - I'm now 46), but I'm happy to accept a quality (read: performance and/or longevity) vs cost compromise. My main reward is doing it and trying something newish.

 

I've had boggo cars, like a 1.2 Nova, a 1.3 Metro, a 998 (or 903cc) Panda, a 1.6 Sierra L and a Volvo S80. Other than the Metro blowing a valve - they coked up and got hot - all of them were 100% reliable. But they were also dull as f*ck!

 

Life's too short, hence I must also own an Alfa at some point. But would that be dull if it was as reliable as your Micra example?

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

On the air cooling front, nightmare number one is the route from the compressor to the intercooler ( whatever breed you use) to the inlet plenum. Lots of pipework plus lots of bends ( particularly 90degree ones ) = lots of pressure drop . If you car is going to be atrack day weapon;, used hard with lots of boost for extended periods, by all means charge cool. If it is a road car that will spend some time on boost but not extended periods, a well sited air to air intercooler will do the job of removing the heat from the compressed air. If, of course, you happen to have a charge cooler sitting in your garage, then it would be an obvious choice, but otherwise I would avoid just because it makes an already difficult plumbing job even more difficult . That is my principal objection, but if the engine bay allows it and you can get one at a decent price, then why not?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Engine removal starts this weekend. Photos to follow. XU7JP4 head, inlet and exhaust going on For Sale.

 

Couple of forward planning questions pls:

- Cambelt: GTI6 same as XU7JP4?

- Turbo oil: Is there a good point to get a pressured oil feed from? I'm suspecting off the back of the block, or end, ideally clutch end?

- Turbo water: Plumbed into the main cooling system?

- Turbo oil & water: Are either directional?

- Turbo mounting: Any reason I can't extend or have my exhaust manifold flange extended out over the gearbox? The tubes will be custom (matched length 1&4 plus 2&3 pairs) on an OE or custom flange. I ask because it's a fair weight/lever to ask the pipes to support, and a bracket off the gearbox doesn't seem right somehow.

Head Gasket: XU7 or 10? RS head so 86mm bore; but it's on an 83mm liner. Also: OE or aftermarket MLS, standard thickness or otherwise?

 

Cheers folks. It's happening!

Edited October 28, 2017 by DrSarty

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Excellent news. Enjoy the extraction! Based on my knowledge and use of the Garret T3,cooling water was not directional but oil is. Feed was a small bore pipe taken from the main oil gallery whilst return was a much larger diameter pipe back to the sump. I do know from experiment that a lot of oil flows through the turbo very quicky( 2.5 litres in 20sec) so your return path needs to be unobstructed. For your turbo oil feed , the obvious place is one of the oil pressure gauge or oil pressure warning light sender tappings on the front of the block. The snag is that it is a long way to the turbo on the other side of the engine. . Tom Fenton would be worth a message to. He has done a 1600 turbo build ( well documented on here) so will have faced and solved very similar problems . Oh, water feed..... main cooling system but bypassing the thermostat so that the supply water is cooled via the radiator from start-up.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Oil feed will require a restrictor as well, there may be one in the turbo already. As mentioned the return needs to be a decent size so the oil can flow quickly away and not back up/pressurise in the pipe.

In the xu10j4rs turbo I was involved in the turbo was sat over the gearbox, there was a support bracket from the head to the manifold and another from the gearbox to the turbo, this is standard practice in loads of aftermarket turbo conversions.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Rich, see page five of Tom Fenton’s Xu5t build where he covers both the turbo Oil feed and drain. Feed is from the oil pressure switch tapping via an adaptor and the drain is back to the sump. The latter caused him the odd headache. If you are using an alloy sump, Tig welding an adaptor in place is an option, or even drilling and using a threaded adaptor with dowty washers will do the job.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Make sure that the return point in the sump is above the oil level.

 

Stick to an air2air intercoolcooler; I would only go for a chargecooler if space is an issue, like in mid-engined cars (mr2 turbo..).

 

Check this site: http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8-new.html

He did a lot of experiments to get a chargecooler on par with the intercooler, but failed and used an intercooler in the end.

Edited October 28, 2017 by wicked

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for the ongoing support and advice.

 

Pics later today, but the engine's just about ready to come out. Usual injuries sustained!

 

Driveshafts can come out when it's up on a ramp, which is where it needs to be to make the engine let go of the frickin' exhaust!!!

 

Heat shield on top of the cast manifold was a bitch, but I can't get at all of the manifold nuts; those I could came out with the stud or the nut sheared. And the 2 springed bolts at the downpipe aren't playing either; no purchase possible on the bolt head.

 

My plan is to get the 3inch stainless system made and fitted prior to the flexi and downpipe section, as that last bit can't be fabricated until the turbo's mounted. While there on the ramp removing the old exhaust, I'll get the shafts and engine out.

 

Loom is out and labelled up ready to be matched to the Emerald. At least I can do that indoors, and I'm comfortable with wiring.

 

All points taken re turbo plumbing and mounting. Now considering removing the current 'push' fan set-up in front of the rad, using that space for an intercooler, and fitting one large or 2 smaller Pacet 'pull' fans engine side of the rad. Sure that'll fit, as well as looking OE.

 

Ditching the canister purge do-dah, but where do the tubes go to in the offside wing?

 

Will try and keep the XU7 fuel rail, and can keep the alternator and PAS set-up, despite the mammoth bracketry on front of the XU7 block. Might move the battery to the boot too.

 

I'll go and read Mr Fenton's thread again, and post some pics *at last* later today.

 

Now nursing slip, stab and knuckle scrape wounds and drinking wine.

Edited October 28, 2017 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

OK. *And please excuse the images/image sizes; I haven't done this for a while.*

 

First some drool pics for Andy/all, of a car I saw recently in Malta:

 

 

Xsara engine bay at 1030:

 

 

Then again at lunchtime...ish:

 

 

Bits acquired - TS Turbo & J4RS Piper Verniers: (Note the flanges already on the turbo acquired for manifold and downpipe fabrication)

 

 

Also attached are some PDFs:

- Standard Sagem XU7JP4 management loom

- My current simplified edit, which is a work in progress for the bits I believe I need, PLUS the beginnings of the Sagem to Emerald pin mapping. I may have to put the PAS solenoid(?) bit back in. The final step will be to do the mapping chart for the Sagem wires (to be kept) and how they will meet the Emerald K6 pins.

Xsara Sagem Wiring MASTER.pdf

Xsara Wiring Transition 2.pdf

Edited October 28, 2017 by DrSarty

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Martini 6 . Worth north of 50k. Beautiful car. Turbo. Almost as beautiful and good work on the engine . All looks is very tidy order by the way. Out of curiosity, is your Xsara going to be a ‘stealth’ car rather like Toms’ 1.6 turbo or do you have plans to make it look a little like the WRC car ?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

XU7 seems to have a steel sump (albeit baffled as advised). Worth changing for my RS sump?

 

The front of the block has 2 oil-related electrical connections. Can someone pls confirm that the LH one (from car front) is just an oil pressure switch, and the RH one is a level sender?

 

Are they both pressure oil feeds? If so, can I take a dash-mounted OP gauge off the LH one and use the RH one as a turbo oil feed?

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

If it is "like the xu9 block, one will be the oil pressure warning light switch and the other the oil pressure gauge. Oil temp is on the sump and oil level , if like the xu10,will be a sender that sits vertically on the front of the block down into the sump . However. The first two are drilling’s straight into the main oil gallery and therefore see oil pump pressure, so ‘yes’ good place to feed your turbo from . A tee piece in the other tapping would enable you to retain both low oil pressure warning light and oil pressure gauge. If you plan to,use a ( more accurate ) aftermarket oil pressure gauge, I heartily recommend the Stack Pro control gauge which runs from an electrical sender . Very accurate, incorporates low oil pressure warning . A bit expensive mind, but so is low oil pressure if you do not know it is low

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

The XU7 is different. If I recall, even the XU10 only has an OP switch, so a pressure sender for a gauge is typically an add-on, e.g via a T-piece.

 

I suppose what I'm asking is if what I believe is a level sender is, because then it's probably not on a pressured feed and is no good to me (other than a level sender, or perhaps a turbo oil drain).

Edited October 30, 2017 by DrSarty