Xmt - Sarty's Xsara GTI6 Turbo

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Got a Haynes now, specifically re ECU wiring. 2 Qs pls:

 

1) Which ecu/management does the (1.8 16v) VTR have? Sagem SL96 / Bosch MP5.2 / MM1AP

 

The Sagem and MM1 pin outs are very similar; the Bosch one quite different.

 

2) All diagrams show the use of a speed sensor (I guess what is normally just the cable-driven speedo thingy on the diff) where the wiring for this interacts with the rev counter wiring at the ECU. This means there seem to be 2 ECU pins supplying the tachometer and I'm used to just one. How does this work and how does this work with an Emerald K6 please?

[welshpug 1,657]

thats vehicle speed, i.e speedometer not tach, speed signal from the vss goes to ecu and dashboard, you can dispense with the connection to ecu as I don't think Emerald can work with the type of sensor used.

 

if you want to use boost by gear /speed you'll need an additional speed sensor.

 

tacho is straight from ecu output, which I believe Emerald is compatible with.

 

 

ecu type you will need to check on the car itself

Edited April 3, 2017 by welshpug

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Perhaps I want clear with my queries. I know the Emerald can drive the tacho; it often uses an external driver you buy separately. I've installed 2 of them before.

 

I also know the VSS is a Vehicle Speed Sensor. I was wanting to confirm:

- Is the VSS the gadget on the diff/off the final drive, in the same place the 205 speedo drive originates?

- Why does it seem that the VSS connects to the ECU?

- If it does, how will I make the speedo work?

 

I basically need to establish which wire in the engine bay goes to the tacho, as currently there appear to be 2, and 1 of them has a feed from the VSS. Knowing which ECU I have would be a good start.

 

I can always look on the ECU itself - which I'll do - but if anyone knows, plus understands the apparent relevance of the VSS and ECU taco signal I'd appreciate hearing from you.

 

P.S. I'm assuming the Xsara speedo is ONLY VSS/electrically driven i.e. our doesn't have a cable drive?

[Anthony 1,003]

Xsara is electronic speedo only. VSS is indeed thing in place of the speedo cable drive in gearbox.

 

OE ECU uses speed signal for various things like idle control - it'll idle fractionally higher when rolling compared to stationary for example.

 

Use the tacho out on the Emerald ECU for the Xsara tacho. You don't need nor want the bunch of diode trick on a newer car like this where the tacho was originally driven by the ECU, only when it was originally coil driven like 205s.

[welshpug 1,657]

what anthony said, my dta runs the tacho direct in the zx.

 

though my zx is an early one with a cable and speed sensor, your xsara as mentioned is purely electronic

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Got a Haynes now, specifically re ECU wiring. 2 Qs pls:

 

1) Which ecu/management does the (1.8 16v) VTR have? Sagem SL96 / Bosch MP5.2 / MM1AP

 

The Sagem and MM1 pin outs are very similar; the Bosch one quite different.

Rich, pm me your chassis number & I'll check on Citroen service box to see if I can get the vehicle characteristics, all this info (+ lots more) are on there.

 

Do you want the gearstick too?

 

g

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Been meaning to send you that Graham. Will do it later today. Got a gear knob from Mr Shuttle, so no need for yours. Many thanks.

I'll find a way to share the appropriate wiring diagram once Graham's advised which management I have, and this may illustrate why I'm asking these questions. Of course it's possible I'm over complicating things.

In short though:
1) The VSS seems to send a signal to the ECU first, which then goes to the speedo, so how will I make the speedo work if I'm swapping the ECU? I may have misread the diagram.

2) Are you saying the Emerald tacho output can go straight to the tacho and I don't need the little grey box thingy?

AND, what started this really...

3) The wiring diagram seems to show 2 tacho wires from the ECU (all 3 ECU options). It's quite a merry dance of wires between the VSS, ECU and binnacle where the tacho and speedo feed of a transistor which has a VSS and a tachometer feed direct from the ECU. So I suppose I'm also asking if the Xsara tacho needs a VSS signal to work?

I'll post up the diagram and highlight what I mean, then you can all take the p1ss.

Edited April 4, 2017 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,657]

tacho does not use the vss, speedometer does.

[welshpug 1,657]

pop your bonnet open, look at the ecu.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

It would be cool if you build a second block for it, iron block.

 

- DW12 crank 96mm stroke

 

- Wiseco pistons: K627M87AP (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-K627M87AP-Piston-Kit-1400-HD-Mitsu-EVO-8-4G63-Turbo-21cc-/131557674895?hash=item1ea172cf8f:g:ZREAAOSwjVVVpstI&vxp=mtr)

 

- Rods either china or pec or custom with same dimensions

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181273684045?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Citroen-Xsara-VTS-2-0L-XU10J4RS-H-Beam-PEC-Steel-Connecting-Rods-with-22mm-Pin-/321866236082?hash=item4af0b900b2:g:QJIAAOSwQPlV-CZx

 

This will give you a 96mm stroke 87mm bore 2283cc block with 9:1 compression in combination with a Mi16 head and 88mm bore 1.3mm thck. head gasket.

 

I was hoping to build something like this myself, but I'll be focusing on a 2.3 NA block for the new 205 after I finish a 1.9 Mi16 engine that I'll use in it to begin with.

 

Edit: Only thing I'm not 100% sure about yet is if the valve pockets of the Mitsu pistons will fit without modification.

Edited April 4, 2017 by B1ack_Mi16

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

OK. Having looked it's the Sagem SL96 management/ECU. I'll still PM you the chassis no. anyway G.

 

So from the now relevant diagram below, I'm really just trying to confirm whether pin 28 or 42 as circled are for the tacho. I'm pretty convinced it's pin 42? Your help appreciated.

 

- Grey box top left is the binnacle / 'b' = speedo / 'c' = tacho - note the transistor thingy below b & c (contributing to my queries). As the tranny feeds both the speedo and tacho, and 2 wires feed into that (16 & 17), I was wondering if the tacho also needs a VSS signal and perhaps vice-versa. You've advised it doesn't.

 

- There also doesn't appear to be a speedo feed directly from the VSS; it goes via the ECU. However, on this diagram, with wire 1360 coming from the VSS to ECU pin 28 which in turn then goes straight off to binnacle pin 17, I strongly suspect that will be my speedo feed and can go direct when the Emerald's in place.

 

- Bottom left #56 is the VSS. So from the above, with the Emerald in place, I suspect I'll just need VSS pin 3 (wire 1360) to just join wire 465 which goes to binnacle pin 17 (on the tranny)

 

- This means most likely that pin 42 is the tacho signal from the ECU, going via wire 426 to pin 16 on the tranny

 

- In my double-checking all 3 diagrams I'm sure the above is correct, as it's consistent that binnacle pins 16 and 17 are for the tacho and speedo respectively. By me understanding the binnacle pins and the ECU pins, I'm confident I can tap into the standard wiring.

 

 

I intend to leave the standard loom in the car, tapping into what's already there and works, with only a new COP loom being added to run the coils. This is why I was keen to know which ECU and specifically which pins (read: wires) can be used. There's no need to reinvent the wheel and build a new loom from scratch.

Edited April 4, 2017 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,657]

ecu pin 28 is vehicle speed signal input from VSS [#56] this wire also heads off to the instrument cluster, item c, Pin 17. wire 1360/465

 

 

Tacho/rpm output from ecu pin 42 to instrument cluster pin 16, item b, wire 426.

[Anthony 1,003]

I fear that you're somewhat over-complicating this Rich.

 

To a point, it doesn't matter what management your engine uses - the chassis round multiplugs (equivalent of the under-dash brown multiplugs on a 205) should be the same, and that's all you care about.

 

One of those multiplug pins will be for the tacho. If you wire the tacho out pin on the Emerald to this, the tacho will work. No magic box o'tricks required.

 

One of those multiplug pins will be for the speedo. If you wire the relevant pin on the VSS to this, the speedo will work. That it also connects to the ECU on the original loom is irrelevant for what you're doing.

 

What you need to do is bell out the pins on the round multiplug to see what's what. From memory, just about everything you need is on the larger of the two - most of the smaller one is immobiliser and diagnostic wires etc IIRC. I might still have the pin out somewhere from where I used a 2.0 VTS loom on my 205 GTi-6 conversion, although you'd still be wise to bell yours through to confirm.

 

PS. I believe it'll be Sagem management - certainly that's what 306 1.8 16v models seem to use from what I've seen, but as said, easiest thing is to lift the bonnet and look!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Great! Whilst I was typing that you've both confirmed what I thought.

 

Specifically at Anthony; you're dead right. Utilising the round multi-plug things is exactly what I wanted to do, but I wasn't sure if anyone had a diagram. Secondly, I didn't know how I'd isolate the speedo and tacho pins, as I don't want to pull the dash apart.

 

By doing what I've done I now know the whole wiring route so can pick it up/tap into it wherever I like.

 

You all know there's method in my evident madness.

 

I can now take this the last step and pick up on coolant and inlet air temp sensors, crank and throttle position sensors. COP wiring will just be fresh straight from the Emerald but using the current coil 12v and ground wires, i.e. just the triggers. There may also be a cam timing sensor on an XU7JP4? And is there a MAP?

 

Finally, will my Mi16 turbo benefit from an ICV/IACV (idle control jobby)?

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Why are you already digging into detail like the speed sensor? I think you should first get the bigger things sorted, like engine compression and robustness, manifold, clutch, lsd, intercooler, etc.

 

For sure you need a custom engine management, so wiring will be custom.

It needs at least to support

- MAP (250kPA or more)

- IAT

- Crank sensor

- throttle potentio meter

- Wideband lambda

- ICV

- boost control

- 2 ignition channels (wasted spark)

Edited April 4, 2017 by wicked

[welshpug 1,657]

no cam sensor on the xu7 but it wouldnt take much to add one from the j4rs, the casting is there just not drilled out.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm having to dig into wiring early on as I have to pull the current lump out and carefully label the in situ wires I want to re-use. It's much easier with the engine in, and then conversely, sorting out a speedo or tacho that isn't working with the engine in is similarly difficult. It's the old adage of organising the jobs to do whilst on/off the ramp, wheels on/off, engine in/out.

 

Your list is useful however as you've given additional detail such as the MAP, boost control, lambda and ICV; I know about all the rest.

 

I remember the GTI6 already had a MAP sensor. Does the XU7JP4 have one and is it suitable? If not, could I use a GTI6/VTS one, or do I need an aftermarket MAP please?

 

Where does boost control fit in please? I'm sure the K6 has controls for this, but what feeds it etc? I'm assuming some sort of 'boost' sensor which perhaps also runs the boost gauge (?).

 

@Mei: Thanks re the cam sensor, but I'm committed now to the XU9J4 block and an XU10J4 head. I think the oil hole on the side of the head may be useful for the turbo (perhaps the return).

Edited April 4, 2017 by DrSarty

[Anthony 1,003]

Standard MAP sensor would be no good as it won't read positive pressure (ie boost). Aftermarket 2 (for upto 1 bar of boost) or 3 (for upto 2 bar of boost) bar sensor would be what you need.

 

For controlling boost, I'd suggest contacting Emerald to see what valve they recommend - I know that VAG 1.8T conversions are popular and Emerald have done a few, so I'm guessing that the standard VAG (Pierburg?) "N75" valve would be fine for the job and easy to source.

[Type-R 3]

Ideally for your stated goals you'd want something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291859993022

Combined with a pedal position sensor and DBW throttle body.

Then, instead of a butterfly regulating engine torque the ECU will do it by adjusting boost, fuel and spark.

You can end up with a much more linear and controlled throttle response and less lag too.

Also you can do things like have the wastegate wide open at a cruise which reduces pumping losses and improves fuel economy.

The reason modern turbo engines are so much less laggy than older ones is things like DBW,

VVT, and electronic wastegate control rather than any huge improvement in turbo tech.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

If you decide to use a GTi6 inlet as I did on my T16 engine, this map sensor will fit straight away and is 20 - 300 kPa.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-0281002996-0281002566-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-PRESSURE-SENSOR-MAP-55219295-/122432253787?hash=item1c8187ef5b:g:TH4AAOSw2xRYmajB&vxp=mtr

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Just wire the std ECU plug into the Emerald, Adaptor looms can be bought for silly money so making your own is 95% cheaper

[allye 530 3 Cars]

I think this thread needs to be split into 2. One thread for technical conversation and one for actual updates!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm sure you don't really mean that.

 

All projects require planning of some sort and this is proving to be quite a valuable conversation, with excellent input, ideas and opinions all directed to a quite clear aim.

 

If you want an update:

- Turbo collected (£275). IHI VF38 Legacy GT twin-scroll. Looks lovely

- Garage cleared. Project engine bits all boxed ready for the builder. Now producing the design/spec and sign-off sheet for them to follow

- Mock up engine on its stand mainly for exhaust manifold construction, COP, power steering and XU7 oil pump mounting

- 3rd dry fit engine (empty block) ready to drop in to evaluate space and the manifold angles etc, especially the downpipe

- Wiring plan just about done, ready to label up as I remove the 1.8 lump

 

Pics to follow.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

I do really mean it. I think we can all agree we love a good build thread, thoroughly enjoy updates, photos and progress. However only a small handful of people enjoy/engage in the hugely technical aspect of all of your build. For me personally having to filter through pages and pages of technical debate and chit chat nearly ruins the enjoyment of seeing the progress.

 

I think my suggestion of two threads wasn't completely silly?

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

A rebuild is just that. Lots of photos and description . Lovely I agree. But a project that involves experiments, modifications and sometimes blind alleys is at another level and makes hugely interesting reading . It does in my view anyway, and therefore keeping all the content in one place allows the reader to follow the journey.