Xmt - Sarty's Xsara GTI6 Turbo

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hi Dan. I think I need that translated .

 

With me being a turbo virgin, I am gathering that a TD05 20G is your current turbo, but what make is it and what (car) is it from please? I assume it's not a Twin-Scroll Turbo (TST)?

 

Am I right assuming that the difference between a 20G and 18G (and 16G) is size, and you are going smaller to avoid lag? I am guessing this because otherwise how does the size or design of a single-scroll turbo change where you get your boost? Can you describe what it's like on the 20G and how you expect the 18G to be different please? My guess is that by changing you will get boost perhaps 500 or even 1,000 RPM lower, but will sacrifice headline horsepower as a result, exchanging it for more tractable/accessible power.

 

I think this is a worthwhile discussion so that [a] I can learn and meet my goals. I would guess you're waiting for your 'snail' to get involved and can get caught off boost. I would happily trade peak BHP numbers for the early-arriving, flat and wide torque curve (read: power band).

 

So now, what the hell is a VF34? I'm guessing a TS turbo, but what make and what's it from please? (Now runs away to start Googling these weird and wonderful codes...) EDIT: Not a TST it seems. See below post.

Edited March 25, 2017 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

The forum doesn't seem to be so easy to do 'multi-quotes' as I remember, so I've done the best I can below to Type-R's points:

 

Have you already got the K6? No. I've just always used Emerald and know the guys well.

 

Can it do all the things like DBW and electronic wastegate control, boost by gear, anti-lag (should you want it).

I will ask about the features you mention above, but I do need to know what 'DBW' is please?

 

Forgot to say I'm going to use an S16 cam cover and run Coil On Plug (COP). I know the K6 can do that.

 

For injectors I'd use R35 GTR, for turbo and intercooler I'd probably use Mitsubishi Evo stuff. Turbo or dare I say it 'Ricer' lingo is like Klingon to me ATM! I'm assuming R35GTR is Nissan Skyline stuff? I may just get new (Bosch) injectors from Emerald when I'm there based on what's needed, but I'll use your recommendation as a guide. Intercooler can come from anything really, but unless any Mitsubishi Evos run twin-scroll (TST) turbos it looks like I'll be going for a PSA/BMW one as suggested earlier; but I do need to find out which donor vehicles run them. I know turbos can be very expensive, so a tested second hand model is favoured. But I'm going to be stubborn and go TST as there are efficiency/anti-lag benefits for these, plus I want to be different.

 

A TD05-16G would be perfect for 320-ish, but there's also the Subaru IHI units that are suitable and easy to find on ebay or some Japanese breakers. As above, I'm going TST. HERE'S SOME INFO ON TSTs: http://speed.academy/twin-scroll-turbocharging-still-the-new-hotness/

 

AND HERE'S A GENERAL TURBO COMPARISON ARTICLE: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/engineering-explained-6-different-types-of-turbocharger-and-the-advantages-of-each-setup/

Apparently a TST (quote) "allows for more valve overlap" (which is mentioned above) "therefore scavenging". I have to confess, I really don't know yet what that means. More Googling for me then!

 

Bear in mind you said you wanted traction and driveability and not excess wheelspin, so add LSD and some suspension finessing to your budget - 300hp at just 5500rpm usually means a torquey engine which will be harder to deploy with just 2wd compared to 300hp NA. Suspension in-hand, but will put a plate diff in, so I'm probably nearer £3,500 all in.

Edited March 25, 2017 by DrSarty

[petert 586]

"Apparently a TST (quote) "allows for more valve overlap" (which is mentioned above) "therefore scavenging". I have to confess, I really don't know yet what that means. More Googling for me then!"

 

It means you need a twin scroll manifold! You seem to be avoiding that part. As I said earlier, exhaust ports 1&4 and 2&3 are joined with equal length pipes.

 

If you don't have the construction & welding skills, or know someone who'll make one cheap, you may as well go with a single scroll turbo, such as the TD05. I'm not very turbo savvy either, but I do know the TD05-16 is used on EVO's.

 

The S16 COP is a good idea. Andy on here is doing the same and using the K6 to ground/fire them directly. Those S16 coils can be troublesome however. I hope you've still got plenty.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Been a long day Pete!?

 

I'm totally aware of the manifold requirements after missing it early on. I am considering options to either manufacture from scratch - carefully dealing with placement - or bastardise something else. For example, I wonder if a GTI6 manifold may be a good starting point, replacing the head flange and making something for the TST, as this is 4 equal tubes that could be made to pair up perhaps (1+4 and 2+3).

 

I'm hunting for donors for a TST.

 

I now also understand the valve overlap and scavenge thing too.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

And I won't use S16 COP. What about gti6? Or I could go back to LS1 or LS2.

[welshpug 1,657]

TD05 16G Compressor Wheel Diameter 48.3 / 68mm TURBINE Wheel Diameter: 49.2 / 56mm Turbine TRIM: 49

 

TD05 20G Compressor wheel Inducer 52.5mm / Exducer 67.9mm Turbine Wheel Inducer 56mm / Exducer 49mm

 

 

same turbine, bigger compressor, bigger unit more suited to 2.3/2.5 engines, on the current 2.0 subaru flat 4 its not making much boost till past 4k which means you'd have to rev it well past sensible for a stock motor to make the potential power.

 

whereas hopefully with a sightly smaller unit it will come in earlier to give a wider usable band.


VF34 is one of the oem Subaru turbochargers, made by IHI and found on some of the STI variants, capable of around 350 bhp.

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

Mini Cooper S or the RCZ. What you will need to do is to have a look at some efficiency maps for them and see if they are going to be suitable for your intended engine. Have a look here;

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/compressor_maps

 

If your going 1.9 MI16 I think the standard Cooper S turbo will be too small, you may end up with the turbo from the RCZ-R (267hp from a 1.6) . What that is going to cost, plus a twin scroll turbo manifold, is anyone's guess. In my opinion, i would be looking at a off the shelf turbo, vf34 would probably be ideal, and have a custom manifold made but run a higher compression ratio to keep it nice and zingy.

 

Mike

[petert 586]

It has been a long day. I've spent all day re-wiring the driver's door of the daughter's 306. On the bubbles now however.

 

You definitely need a cheap & cheerful ignition solution. Because the K6 can ground coils, you can use any coil. Do you have Bosch MEC-717 (or similar) coils over there? You could mount four of those on a strut brace. Otherwise, LS1/LS2 is easy.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

As I search I learn more. In looking for turbo options it seems there are quite a few, relatively cheap TST options.

 

Finding one from an RCZ-R or BMW X5 or X6 M I think will be impossible. But in searching, it seems there are at least 3 IHI options used on Subarus - VF37, 38 & 49 at least - for under £400 and seeming to be worth consideration.

 

Any thoughts?

 

P.S. I am NOT going to go the easy route. That's not my way and isn't an adventure.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Re suspension:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eibach-Pro-Kit-Springs-Citroen-Xsara-Break-Coupe-N1-N2-N0-E2205-120-/132108069312?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE

 

Any good?

 

Hope there link works.

[Anthony 1,003]

Have you tried it on the standard springs yet? For road use, they work very well in my opinion - or certainly the 2.0 VTS ones do.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Hi. Great thread. On the ignition side, I am using a K6 and new S16 coils. I also have a set of used Xsara vts cop which the K6 will happily run. If they are of use to you, you are very welcome to them. They have some wiring with them but you will want to start again with that .

Andy

[petert 586]

Found some interesting comparison info on turbos. In particular, the difference between 16G and 18G.

 

http://forum.wrx.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=53416

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Quick mop up of queries etc:

 

1) Why not XU7 bottom end with Mi head?

 

2) What feature is 'DBW' on an ECU?

 

3) @Andy: I'd love the VTS/GTI 6 COP you've offered please. I need to review what I have then and consider Peter T's suggestion of Bosch options. Some engines have 4 x COP (naturally 4) and others have wasted spark with either a separate coil pack or one built into the central cover on the head that fit similarly to COP but aren't individual. S16 is defo COP, but I can't remember what GTI6/VTS uses and haven't looked on my Xsara yet.

 

4) I'm keen on 16" wheels in white with 205/45s, but what wheel width (J rating); 5.5 - 6 - more?

 

5) Any wheel recommendations that look similar to the WRC in blue, red and white pictured earlier?

 

6) Done deal: GTI6 calipers and disks from Anthony. Refurbed beam with group A dampers, GTI6/VTS ARBs and torsion bars. Standard springs.

 

7) Finalising IHI TST as we speak. Doing research. Need to find fabricator for custom manifold and some piping. (Shout if you want to help). Custom stainless exhaust; have supplier already.

 

8) Rear lights being returned to standard. Knob replaced. Seat bolster being fixed.

 

Engine coming out shortly. I'm using the gear box, oil pump and some piping, but what's left is available to any who can collect. I can provide a replacement oil pump anyway FOC.

 

@PeterT: I have some GTI6 cams if you want them? All I need now is [a] an extend pump pickup and some guidance on recommended TDC lift using a no.4 pulley on the inlet and a vernier on the exhaust. You may say inlet timing is per the OE pulley locking hole.

[welshpug 1,657]

 

1) Why not XU7 bottom end with Mi head?

 

oil issues,

 

2) What feature is 'DBW' on an ECU?

 

Drive by wire.

 

3) @Andy: I'd love the VTS/GTI 6 COP you've offered please. I need to review what I have then and consider Peter T's suggestion of Bosch options. Some engines have 4 x COP (naturally 4) and others have wasted spark with either a separate coil pack or one built into the central cover on the head that fit similarly to COP but aren't individual. S16 is defo COP, but I can't remember what GTI6/VTS uses and haven't looked on my Xsara yet.

 

XU7 is wasted spark cassette that sits between the cam ladders, mimicking a C.O.P arrangement, RS head has additional lugs to run a true individual COP setup.

 

4) I'm keen on 16" wheels in white with 205/45s, but what wheel width (J rating); 5.5 - 6 - more?

 

7" ET15.

 

not J, just inches. J is bead profile, has nothing whatsoever to do with the width.

 

5) Any wheel recommendations that look similar to the WRC in blue, red and white pictured earlier?

 

OZ were the wheel supplier, so a supertourismo is the closest road wheel I think.

 

 

6) Done deal: GTI6 calipers and disks from Anthony. Refurbed beam with group A dampers, GTI6/VTS ARBs and torsion bars. Standard springs.

 

a good start, bear in mind the lower weight with an aluminium lump over the heavier 2.0.

 

7) Finalising IHI TST as we speak. Doing research. Need to find fabricator for custom manifold and some piping. (Shout if you want to help). Custom stainless exhaust; have supplier already.

 

Edwards Motorsport are not far from you these days I think, Mike has moved from west drayton, really good fabricator and welder.

 

 

[calvinhorse 870]

Wheels- as welshpug says, 7" et15 will be perfect

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Andy (re COPs): You have PM.

Hopefully these images work, but it makes you wonder why the ugly Xsara duckling is so far from the swan off its WRC cousin:

 

And wheels, reduced from £699 to, erm £699!: https://www.wheelbasealloys.com/alloy-wheels/oz-racing/superturismo-wrc/white/15-inch?currency=GBP&gclid=CM7BsqjU9NICFQcz0wodqJYIvg

Edited March 26, 2017 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,657]

beware that if you do eventually decide to go for a wide kit the wheels are 18", the WRC/Maxi/F2000 cars ran a bigger overall wheel than the road cars.

[petert 586]

I'd be getting less than 15ET on 7". It might be fine with a std shock but you don't want the tyre hitting the spring base nuts on a coil over. More room is better than less.

 

Use 0.020" lift @ TDC on the exhaust.

[Type-R 3]

You're probably going to want a stiffer lower engine mount and p-bushes on the top of the suspension list to deal with any axle tramp.

Evo 4-10 TD05 is a twin scroll, loads on ebay around the £250 mark. Doesn't matter if you've got the IHI though.

IHIs tend to be more compact and slightly better performing but less reliable, TD05s are tough as hell and rebuildable.

Turns out the R35 GTR injectors have the same Denso part number as late Subaru STI ones,

they're way better than Bosch and Siemens, and you can pick up a 4 pack for ~£120 on ebay.

After you work out your pipe runs and intercooler location you can decide on intercooler design.

I saw one at the breakers today that looks ideal to sling behind the front lower vent, off some van.

Found out the renault espace has a really impressive one, about the same size as the Xsara rad.

[AlexN 7]

I know that you had ruled this out, but if you did want a body kit, this company in France do maxi panels for the phase 1 (and 2) Xsara

 

http://www.mcracingsa.com/4-pieces-auto-polyester-competition/6-citroen/380-xsara/219-maxi-ph1-ou-ph2/

[welshpug 1,657]

Tony Palfrey can sort you out the kit.

 

https://www.maximotorsport.com/products.php?directory=products/Citroen/Citroen%20Xsara

 

Devon based, works with the Satchell guys.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Awesome wheels. I would seriously consider those on my 205 .PM sent by the way.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

In looking at my Mi16 cam shafts I noticed I don't have a standard one for my exhaust. Any one got one please? (inlet or exhaust matters not)

 

I have the leaning tower of Pisa of cam sprockets/pulleys!

 

And can I make my XU7 power steering pump fit my Mi block?

 

Jackherer, Andy, Kam and Anthony: You all have PMs.

[Anthony 1,003]

I've got a spare standard 1.9 Mi inlet cam but no exhaust.

 

Does that mean you've got a stash of non standard ones then? </magpie>