[Car_Upgrade] Yet Another Mi16 1.9 Build

[petert 588]

Short and broken hockey stick seals are common. I butter up the seals and all surfaces with 1211 and start inserting the rear cap at an angle of 45 deg. This minimizes the stretch on the seal. Then stand the cap up vertical. Tension bolts and leave the seals in for 24 hrs before cutting them off at 2mm proud. They will shrink.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Thank you. Gearbox out, so I can see a bit more clearly the source of the leak, or I hope too when the flywheel and clutch are off.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Found it. Hockey stick seals, or at least one side. Poor workmanship. Now I need some new ones.!

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Hockey stick seals and crankshaft seal replaced. Worryingly , the seals do seem to stretch quite a bit, even though I used the 45 degree method. Anyway, all sealed up with plenty of Threebond 1215 ( same as 1211 but cures more rapidly and is grey) . Gearbox back in today so I should know if I have done the job correctly this time by the end of the day

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Success . Up and running and no oil leaks.God bless PeterT and Threebond!

. Tickover is lumpy and some spitting back though the bodies, despite my efforts to balance them, so some work to do on the laptop to see if I can improve things

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Right. Probably to much tutting I have fitted a wide band lambda probe ( innovate MTX-L ) . The idea is that it allows me to both measure and alter the afr to ensure that the car is safe to drive, at least at low load and steady throttle . To stabilise the signal and reduce noise, I have fitted ferrite beads around both signal and power cables and a 2200 microfarad capacitor across the power supply leads to smooth out the inevitable ripples in the cars power supply . Quite how well all this is going to work I will find out in the next couple of days when I get the car running again, check on the bodies balance and attempt to use the sensor to help with afr adjustment. The K6 is also capable of adaptive closed loop operation but I think if I use that facility I will limit it to low rpm, low throttle angle stuff to start with . I have read Sandy's thoughts on this subject and bow to his wisdom and superior knowledge .

Oh, gratuitous photograph, just to add colour to the post

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Well, the best laid plans and all that. Wide band sensor fitted, calibrated, matched to the ecu settings, no error codes but not afr reading either. Well, to be precise, it reads 22.4 when it is very clear that the engine is running rich, so I have a problem somewhere, but not quite sure where to look. That reading suggests that the output from the Bosch sensor is around 5v and is not responding to the exhaust gas at all. As it is brand new I am hoping it is not a faulty sensor, but not quite sure how to check . Any suggestions gratefully received.

[petert 588]

Measure the voltage coming out of the innovate controller. It should be something between 0-5V.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Will do, but I suspect it will say nearly 5v , as both the gauge and the ecu are reading 22.4, so at least consistent, which is what made me suspect the probe. When I blip the throttle, the reading falls slightly to about 20, but other than that, a stubborn refusal to respond to the exhaust . Bother!

Andy

[welshpug 1,661]

try it without the stuff you added, make sure its a good power supply as well, the widebands take quite a few amps.

[petert 588]

You may find this useful. The scale is slightly different on the Innovate MTX-L.

 

ie

0V = 7.35:1

5V = 22.29:1

 

Check output on the yellow wire.

Edited May 22, 2017 by petert

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Thanks Peter. The supply is a dedicated one from a separate relay with a 5A fuse , so no supply issue . Ground is common with the ecu so no zero offset. The capacitor is simply to smooth out dc ripple, but I will remove it. I have used an MTX-L before on two Integrales,both with the smoothing capacitor and the ferrite beads and both have worked very well. However, I will check the voltage output which I can do via the K6 as it monitors the Lambda output voltage . Naturally I cannot cover the entire afr range, but I can easily trim the fuel at a particular engine speed and load site and see how much, if any, the voltage changes . The fact that when I did this yesterday and the afr did not change makes me think that the output p.d is not changing as it should. I have emailed Innovate in California, described the symptoms and asked their advice. I have also contacted the supplier who was very helpful and happy to replace if Innovate cannot diagnose the problem.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Innovate got in touch and suggested I update the system firmware. Nice idea, except my afr already had the latest firmware version, so plan 'b' is to do the voltage readings, but I think I know what the answer will be.

[petert 588]

I've never enjoyed the reliability of Innovate and gave up on them, in favour of a Haltech controller which has been bullet proof.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

I have to admit that I am running low on patience. I am ready to take the car for an MOT except for getting the slow running and light throttle something like. I thought that an afr would be an accurate and rapid way of setting the car up to make it driveable. Away , teaching Physics today so back at home tonight to have another go. If it does not work, I will ask for a refund and try mapping at light throttle simply by getting the engine to run smoothly and then adjust the emmissions at tickover when I get to the test station.

I did start to look on the web for some trouble shooting tips and was horrified to find the number of posts that talked about the unreliability of the Innovate . I should have bought the AEM Uego which is the same price, but went with Innovate as I have used one in the past without a problem. On the up side, it is all a learning process, and throughout the build, I have learned a lot( lots from you thanks) and that is all part of the fun. And I know that once the car is on the road and any little niggles are sorted, I will want to improve and develop it to make it even better. As you may recall, the engine is standard apart from the bodies and the raised c.r. Now it is installed, I do admit that the all alloy engine looks 'right' in the 205 bay but I should have fitted a pair of your cams, a Satchell inlet and a Miles Horne Exhaust manifold!!!Another head build on the cards this winter!!!

[petert 588]

I'd return it and buy the AEM. It's a valuable tool which takes the guess work out of tuning. You'll struggle to tune at idle though, as there is rarely enough gas flow. Just do that the old fashioned way.

 

Having said that, I just recalled you have std cams. Even with my Stage I inlet you can still tune it with a wideband at idle.

Edited May 23, 2017 by petert

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

I've fitted probably half a dozen AEM kits to various cars. No issues, plug and play and up and working instantly, no calibration or firmware messing required. I've never used Innovate stuff, and I know the only folk that generally write on the internet are those that have issues, but their stuff just sounds far too flaky for me.

[welshpug 1,661]

sandy used to use Innovate but now uses AEM with the lsu 4.9 sensor, used to have the 4.2 which I still have myself.

 

we had issues with mine but it was installation not the product itself. (damaged wiring, poor power supply and proximity to the head, my downpipe situates it much closer than most)

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

I am sure that the installation is o.k. Sensor is well away from the manifold and mounted 10 degrees away from vertical . Dede I cared power supply and good Earth with no offset. The hard bit is demonstrating that it is faulty. By that I mean that if the voltages are incorrect ( they will be) is it the driver or the probe , as the latter is not under the Innovate warranty. Mind you, if it does not work, the supplier is duty bound ( I hope ) to take it back and either replace or refund.

[welshpug 1,661]

what sensor does it use?

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

The Bosch LSU 4.9

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Update. Voltage measured in free air, butane gas and exhaust gas. Output voltage remained at 5.00v. Right. Now a word about the supplier, Fuel performance. They have been excellent ( unlike the customer support at Innovate in California ) . They have asked me to return the entire kit and offered to replace it with whatever I now prefer. Awesome service. And it is not their fault. They are the distributor not the manufacturer.

Andy

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Innovate returned. AEM Uego wide band on its way to me. The supplier has been absolutely fantastic . Customer support at Innovate in California much, mipuch less so. In fact, they have not replied to me last email giving them the voltages they asked me to measure.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

AEM UEgo behaving well. Innovate have agreed to take back their MTX-L via the distributor, so a decent outcome . Next job is to sort the ignition timing, I have the trigger position in the ecu set at 114 degrees, but I am not sure this is correct. If I retard the ignition at tickover via the ecu by 25 degrees the tickover improves radically and the afr settles to 14.7 rather than the 18 it was before I retarded the ignition on that speed and load site Timing light out I think.

[petert 588]

yes, lock ecu at 10º btdc and verify with a timing light.