[Car_Upgrade] Yet Another Mi16 1.9 Build

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Ah. Hence the standard 1.9 box. 

[jackherer 543]

4 hours ago, petert said:

That's my point. I'm pretty sure that Andy's car will pull 7000 in 5th with a 3.62 cwp and 0.865 5th.

If my maths are right that's about 151mph and 215bhp is spot on for that top speed.

 

SPEED (MPH)	FLYWHEEL POWER REQUIRED	MPG
30	5	97
40	8	76
50	12	60
60	19	48
70	27	38
80	38	31
90	52	26
100	69	22
110	90	18
120	114	16
130	143	14
140	176	12
150	215	10
160	258	9
170	307	8

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Impressive. How did you do this calculation? You must have rolling resistance , CD coefficient etc. 

[jackherer 543]

I only worked out the speed from the gear ratios and rpm, the table showing bhp and top speed was posted by pumaracing many years ago and it's generic not 205 specific.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20120219012113/http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/topspeed.htm

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Thanks for the link.Just read his article  and can see where the numbers have come from .

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

You'll find the underlying formula's in the Bosch Automotive Handbook (and a lot more). I did a similar calculation in the past with parameters of a 205 and the numbers match reality; 151 mph on gps with 220bhp and Td box. 

 

Nice results on the engine; power and torque graphs look good; must be a joy to drive. 

[SweetBadger 94]

21 hours ago, jackherer said:

If my maths are right that's about 151mph and 215bhp is spot on for that top speed.

 

SPEED (MPH)	FLYWHEEL POWER REQUIRED	MPG
30	5	97
40	8	76
50	12	60
60	19	48
70	27	38
80	38	31
90	52	26
100	69	22
110	90	18
120	114	16
130	143	14
140	176	12
150	215	10
160	258	9
170	307	8

But why in the world would you want to go that fast in a 205? And more to the point where? I maxed out my old 205 on the Autobahn once (fettled MI16 with GTi6 box), so about 140, and it was bloody scary!

 

I don't know a UK track that has a straight long enough to get to that speed.

 

I would have though a compromise with a shorter box that still gives a reasonable rpm at cruising speed would make for a more enjoyable car.

 

If you can put up with the loss of right hand lock, the Gti6 box is great - short ratios, and a nice long 6th gear. Drove one for years, and soon got used to it.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Interesting discussion, and thanks for the comments. I guess Toms point is the most salient: what is it like cruising at 75-80mph . That is why I might , after trying the car for a few hundred miles, see if I can fit a taller 5th gear into my box in situ, depending upon how it feels and sounds . As for the top speed, never going to get close so of academic interest only. 

[petert 588]

If it has an Mi16 box now, with assuming 0.76:1 5th, what longer 5th is available? Standard 1.9L GTi box would still be my choice; higher first gear, closer ratios and 7% longer fifth overall.

Edited November 16, 2019 by petert

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

I think you are correct. Maybe a diesel box has a taller fifth, but I am a long way from being sure about that . The 1.9 ratios do make a lot of sense. As and when I build a 1.9 box, I just hope it is as sweet as the mi16 box I have on now. 
Fiddling on fitting an oil cooler at present . Extra plumbing bits arrive on Tuesday so it will not be a long job.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Interesting discussion, and thanks for the comments. I guess Toms point is the most salient: what is it like cruising at 75-80mph . That is why I might , after trying the car for a few hundred miles, see if I can fit a taller 5th gear into my box in situ, depending upon how it feels and sounds . As for the top speed, never going to get close so of academic interest only. 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

8 minutes ago, Andy said:

I think you are correct. Maybe a diesel box has a taller fifth, but I am a long way from being sure about that . The 1.9 ratios do make a lot of sense. As and when I build a 1.9 box, I just hope it is as sweet as the mi16 box I have on now. 
Fiddling on fitting an oil cooler at present . Extra plumbing bits arrive on Tuesday so it will not be a long job.

Found it. The 306DT box has a 0.657 5th gear ratio on a 3.95 final drive .

[petert 588]

15%

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Oil cooler nearly ready for testing. Just the unions to tighten and a new filter to put on( which has not arrived yet, hence the pause) Oil sandwich plate has a thermostatic valve , so I hope I will not over cool the oil 

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Andy i am fairly sure those oil pipe unions are going to interfere with the bumper valance. It fits quite closely to the front panel crossmember.

 

I’ve always routed them as per Peugeot did on the 1.9 with an oval cutout in the headlamp panel.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Not the best photo but you get the idea. 45’s work best off the sandwich plate.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Pair of holesaw holes joined up, then look up “Rayrim” heat adhesive edging trim which makes a really tidy job.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

That is neat Tom. Yes, the unions will foul part of the lower valance  . I had marked where there would be a problem and was going to cut a hole, but will now look again at your idea before firing up the air saw and dremel .

 

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Looking back to the start of this thread, I realise that I started it nearly three years ago, so perhaps now is a fitting time to close it. The 205 that began the topic was unfortunately written off by a chance encounter with a Range Rover. Recovering it back to home , stripping it of just about every part and , in doing so, undoing all the work I had spent the previous year engaged in was a bit demoralising. However, I did get another one ( although I toyed with the idea of other , non Peugeot options)  and the rest you know. 
I have re read a few engine build threads from others that have been done over the past 10-13 years , and that I found so useful on first read . Though not originally planned, I ended up with an iron block, bored to 87.00mm ( standard fare) and a 96mm stroke crank form an EW12( probably less standard) . The head has turned out to be quite mild, albeit with 6mm stem valves and some port and chamber work under the watchful eye of Guy Croft. For reasons that are for discussion another time, the cams are not solid but hydraulic ( Peter Taylor) , with all the Peter Taylor oil supply and control mods , given that the head is an S16 one. Exhaust is courtesy Miles Horne with Zircotec coating ( which, by the way, is worth every penny) . Inlet manifold is Colin Satchell with Great British Sportscars throttle bodies ( they look very like AT power ones ) and an Emerald ECU. Outcome is 190ft.lb and 216 hp. Had I used the solid cams ( that I still have ) I am sure the maximum 

power  would have been higher, but that is conjecture. 
All in all, pleased with the outcome. I have enough bits to build another 2.3l litre engine with probably an even better crank, the forged , 8 counterweight DW12 and an xu10j4rs head ( avoiding the oil control mods as most are standard , trapdoor sump, oil pump chain guard and baffle, windage tray and no massive oil retention in the head ) Bummer would be the exhaust manifold, but that would be the start of a new thread, would it not ? 

[petert 588]

I think you should install the solid cams, do an A-B dyno test, then close the thread. The extra duration, lift and RPM should see it make 240+ hp.

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

I know Peter, I keep toying with the idea. One of my hydraulic lifters is tapping, so I will have to remove the cams and replace , and I have replacement solids for the damaged ones, and I have kept the others in order , labelled, so shiming up will not be a nightmare , but I do not want to sacrifice mid range torque for top end power, having now sampled the delights of the former . Decisions .My original plan was to use the solid cams in  the 85mm bore xu9j4 , together with the 143mm forged PEC rods and the Wossner pistons ( bought cheaply on impulse)  so building a lightweight high rpm engine . Sarty drew me to the dark side of long stroke iron block deviance and look where that got me, a massive grin every time the car turns a wheel ( In fairness, your recipe for instant power and torque was, as I recall, iron block, 87mm bore and 88mm crank with whatever head one had available . Compression, cams,  and bodies and there is 200hp without trying ) .

Hope you are having a great Christmas by the way. Still with grandchildren so bike has not turned a wheel now for a week, and I have eaten too much ( oh, and drunk too. much too, so the first few days of the New year are going to be a challenge ) 

As always, thanks for your contributions and huge help and encouragement .

Oh, afterthought. About 15 years ago, Guy Croft built an XU10J4 with 87mm bore and , I think 86mm  crank. He

told me that on the dyno at the university of Cork in Ireland it managed 240hp . He thought that was the limit of the flow potential of the head at that point . When I shared with him my latest RR data he was impressed with the torque, like you thought that your solid cams would get another 20plus Hp but reckoned that 240hp( ish) would still be the limit unless I wanted to go with bigger bodies and even more duration , at which point it would cease to be a road car. 

[Wallby 47]

I wonder what the new owner has done to add £6000 to the asking price of this car? Just popped up on ebay...

[Andy 105 1 Cars]

Nope.