Reliable Race Clutch Pressure Plate Required - Any Ideas?

[Rippthrough 98]

Yeah, bang the other pressure plate on it, 50 quid and a drill

[welshpug 1,661]

Thoughts?

 

FECK

 

 

£100 for a release bearing!? I think Colin Satchell has sorted a few release bearings.

[Kane 34]

Just out of interest what modifications, if any, are required to the bellhousing to relocate the starter for the smaller diameter flywheel?

[Biggles 65]

Flywheel isn't smaller, just the clutch.

 

Will be very interested to hear how you find it - that's pretty much what I'll be replacing mine with.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Doesn't look like it will fit to me, BE3 uses 2 different arms for a start and no talk of that there, I've always seen adaptors but again the 2 types of Guide bush as well make a difference to how far the bearing goes back

[petert 588]

Why did you choose the 6 paddle in preference to the 8400-A019 4 paddle? The release bearing recommended to me was an AP CP3457, but that still requires some work to make it fit with a BE3 arm. I haven't solved it yet so I'm keen to follow your progress.

Edited August 26, 2016 by petert

[SweetBadger 94]

Going 6 paddle because the car still sees the road occasionally to get to and from some of the closer tracks to me; the 6 paddle should have nicer manners on the road.

 

For the release bearing, as welshpug pointed out Colin Satchel has made up adaptors previously see here: http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=111533&page=69 , but it looks like quite a faf to get the AP one fitted as you have to grind out part of the bell housing.

 

Helix should do a release bearing for a be3 box - Cameron got hold of one from them: http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=102169&page=30 may not be the one pictured on the Spoox website, I'll have to get in contact with Helix to find out.

 

Miles are the guide bushes interchangeable? I think the twin plate cerametallic clutch is going to be taller than the standard clutch so there could be an issue with the release bearing not going back far enough if we have the thicker guide bush.

[welshpug 1,661]

the guide bush/seal carriers are interchangeable, just need to check the bearing preload.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

It's not the thickness of the bush it's how far back the bearing can go, the bush's are not really interchangeable as the later ones use a O ring which doesn't fit the early box as the lip is not machined into the box

[welshpug 1,661]

just saw this from an engineering firm I follow on Facebook, they build stuff for rally cars and general engineering stuff for non automotive as well.

 

https://www.facebook.com/OLLE-Precision-Engineering-136978576350669/

 

[welshpug 1,661]

oh yeah, they made the guide tube too.

[petert 588]

Some good research and info in all of that. I think I like Colin's solution best if you've got the tube to take it.

[SweetBadger 94]

Right, I've ordered all the bits I need apart from a replacement cable end for the clutch cable.

 

I went with an AP sintered twin plate clutch in the end as it was £200 cheaper and slimmer than the cerametallic version; 35mm vs 40mm height. (I think there could be issues with the thicker release bearing and a higher clutch cover). Will just have to be careful not to slip the clutch on the few occasions it does see the road.

 

- TTV race flywheel arrived (quick delivery from RichW as always)

 

- Helix do indeed do a release bearing for a BE3 box (ordered via pug-1-off).

 

The bearing is 52mm diameter, so doesn't quite match the AP clutch 54mm release fulcrum diameter but should be fine as the minimum diameter of the spring fingers is 45.9mm.

 

 

 

This was by far the cheapest option at about £100

 

Just waiting on the delivery of the clutch (clutch plates are being made to order roughly 5wks lead time).

 

 

The last piece of the puzzle is going to be limiting the clutch travel:

 

- AP specify a max bearing movement of 5.5mm

- The standard clutch bearing moves 7.8mm for a reasonable amount of pedal travel (22mm of cable pull)

 

The easy way would be to put a nylon stopper under the pedal and live with a shorter clutch pedal. But I think that moving where the clutch cable connects to the pedal towards the pivot point will A) reduce the cable travel for a given amount of pedal movement, B ) reduce the required pedal force.

 

So I'm going to get hold of a spare clutch pedal and have a play.

Edited September 21, 2016 by SweetBadger

[SweetBadger 94]

Actually just measured the release bearing and it's 50mm.

 

Spoke to AP and they said it'll be fine - the release load will be slightly reduced and there will be slightly more bearing travel - bonus!

[Sandy 191]

I'm glad to say almost all the issues I've seen are covered here. On the issue of pedal weight, you really need to pay attention to the contact radius of the bearing on the fingers (a lot of leverage is easily lost that way, especially if over-stroking), the clutch lever angle as it strokes and if the fork tips are taking the load or if the clutch fork is bearing on the edge of the bearing carrier at the start of the travel. Being on top of all of these possibilities is essential.

I'd avoid concentric hydraulic release bearings, the seals often don't last long and repair on race day can be impractical, where as cable and external slave cylinders are far more readily fixed. Also, avoid trying to fit aftermarket floor mounted pedal boxes, they may seem like a Gucci works car look idea, but they aren't really practical in a hatchback shell, the driving position will be contrived and clutch/brake cable operation will need linkages to properly resolve, which adds a lot of things to go wrong and often do.

Finally and a biggie, it's not un-common for cracking between the plate paddles to occur and that's usually down to the plate dragging around the inside of the clutch basket. Two principal causes of this, poor input shaft alignment and input shaft pulling off centre or end float. Poor alignment on BE equipped cars is almost always down to a mix of gearbox casings being used; they are line bored at the factory to make a matching set and the repeatability throughout two decades ~ of production, has not been very good, so you should try to keep an original set complete. The clutch plate going off centre through wandering is often down to aggressive down changes (or miss shifts to too low a gear) or radial end float in the input shaft, through input shaft bearings worn or not correctly fitted. The only way really to control this is with a spigot bush or bearing in the end of the crank, but that usually requires the input shaft or crank to be machined to suit.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Sandy

[SweetBadger 94]

Thanks for the extra info Sandy, i'll be double checking the clutch fork and where it pushes on the release bearing. Don't think my budget is going to stretch to getting a spigot bearing though so will have to check the input bearing is in good shape and then hope nobody's buggered about with swapping the casing on the gearbox previously!

 

Been turning my attention to the plastic BE3 clutch cable end this eve (why did they ever change it - the BE1 metal cable end is far more substantial!). I think I have a decent and cheap solution; involved buying a new BE1 cable and stealing the metal bracket off it plus a small bit of the cable end then mating this to the BE3 cable.

 

I can then just buy a BE1 clutch pedal and that's it taken care of. Should also be easier to drill a new hole in a BE1 pedal if I want to relocate where the cable attaches to the pedal to gain more leverage (just need to drill a hole rather than cut a slot for a BE3).

 

Anyway pics probably explain it better:

 

BE3 cable with BE1 metal bracket (BE1 cable end shown next to it - note how much bigger it is)

 

 

 

Only thing I'm not too happy about is the smaller diameter of the BE3 cable end - close to the diameter of the hole on the metal bracket. I don't think it'll pull through but I'd be happier if it was pulling on a bit more material:

 

 

You can see above the cable end is not much bigger than the locating collar which goes through the hole in the metal bracket.

[SweetBadger 94]

That's annoying - a bit more research and it seems that around 1990 pug did a BE3 cable to suit a BE1 style pedal, need one of these!:

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kupplungsseile-ABS-A-B-S-K28062-PEUGEOT-2150-A2-/222164389140

 

Edit: part no 2150.A2 for anyone who needs one.

Edited October 5, 2016 by SweetBadger

[welshpug 1,661]

the pedal isnt a "be1" its just pre 1990, same pedal for the ma box and the one used on the suitcase pre TU engines.

 

the bulkhead hole changed at the same point iirc, from a bayonet type fitting to the round hole and rubber bung.

[Anthony 1,003]

Pedal box hole change was earlier, around 88/89 from memory.

 

I've still never actually seen a car in the metal with one of those early BE3 cables - my January 1990 registered (and thus almost certainly 1989 built) car for example has the later "normal" BE3 setup, and that's true of other late '89 or early '90 cars I've owned or worked on.

[SweetBadger 94]

Lots of new shiny bits arrived earlier this week:

 

 

 

Also have a diy clutch alignment tool - chopped the input shaft of last year's dead gearbox:

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by SweetBadger

[SweetBadger 94]

Right then, finally got it all bolted together yesterday, here's the clutch mounted to the flywheel with some 12.9 cap-head screws:

 

 

With the gearbox installed the release bearing sat a little closer to the engine than standard, but well within the operating range of the clutch fork.

 

I tried a modified clutch pedal with the cable pull point moved closer to the pivot point:

 

 

It did reduce the clutch arm travel (a little too much), but also made the pedal feel disconcertingly light!

 

So back to a standard pedal for now - obviously given that the max release bearing movement is 5.5 mm the clutch pedal is a little shorter.

 

The pedal on this clutch is lighter than standard!!! I thought something was wrong with it when I first tried the pedal, but it is working as expected. So 160daN release load is lighter than standard for anyone who needs to gauge the release load on a clutch.

 

I think that I could have used the single plate 240daN clutch cover and it would have been fine (and cheaper)... Oh well.

 

Being a sintered clutch it's on/off like a switch; like you wouldn't believe is possible! First time I tried to move the car out of the garage it stalled, second time I wheel-span. So I'm going to have to avoid driving this in any traffic at all costs!

 

You can slip the clutch to move the car about, but it's difficult and it doesn't make a very happy noise when it's slipping.

 

My recommendation for anyone else considering an AP racing clutch would be to go for the 240 daN clutch cover and run a single plate - cheaper, and with a modified clutch pedal as per the above pic I think pedal effort will not be an issue.

[Biggles 65]

Good info there. Thanks.

 

I found my sintered clutch to be exactly like you describe for about the first 30 stage miles (which was about 6 stages). Then it became noticeably more progressive. It'll be interesting to hear if yours beds in similarly.

[SweetBadger 94]

Hi, fingers crossed mine mellows out a bit after some use!

 

Only other thing to look out for if using a single plate AP clutch is that the clutch is not as tall, so you may need to space out the rear of the release bearing somehow to ensure you don't run out of travel (as per the one Colin satchel made).

[Batfink 201]

Just for reference. I sold a Helix release bearing to a customer and it was a Valeo item. It seems that Helix do not sell uprated release bearings, just uprated in price.
My customer gave it back and ordered his valeo for £40 instead of £120.

[SweetBadger 94]

That may be the case for the standard size bearings, but the one I needed has a much larger diameter (50mm) to work with the larger diameter clutch fulcrum on the ap clutch cover, so it was definitely not a standard bearing.

 

I never had an issue with the standard valeo bearing when using a 215mm clutch so can't really see the need for them. I'm not surprised your customer sent it back; I'd be pretty pissed off if someone tried to charge me £120 for a standard valeo bearing! Even £40 sounds a bit steep!

Edited October 20, 2016 by SweetBadger