The 205 Mi16 Dream

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

Hi and welcome to my build thread I'll try not to dribble on too much but I do have quite a few questions about different aspects, I've been trawling through posts and threads absorbing as much as I can and wouldn't ask if I wasn't sure.

 

I bought my F 89 plate 1.9, 9 years ago now and believe it to be a phase 1.5. I bought it from up Manchester way and after driving it back home found it to have a head gasket on its way out and the mileage has definitely been clocked by at least 20k, well after 7 years of having it on and off the road due to various ailments the bottom end finally gave up and put a rod through the block so terminal, the car has sat in my garage for 2 years now teasing me every time I go in there.

Hopefully this pic works?

 

The plan has always been for a road tuned mi16. Having now bought the engine a couple of months ago which has apparently sat for 7 years and out of a 92 plate 405, came with everything still attached except for ecu and afm that I can spot so far, I believe it to be a 3 row loom- I still need to get up to speed on wiring as to be completely honest I haven't got a clue what I'm looking at. The lump also came with a mi16 be3 box a standard inlet and exhaust and for an extra £20 he chucked in a reangled inlet, I put a little oil down the plug holes of each chamber and gingerly tried turning her over which to my surprise was actually very easy even without a long bar.

 

I've rebuilt the rear beam and sorted the rear underside out for rust and re under sealed planning to move onto the front sub frame and bay next before going inside. Next wkend I'm getting the lump mounted on my engine stand and begin stripping for a full rebuild.

 

Everything to do with brakes/suspension and body I have found on threads here no problems at all and are absolutely spot on you gents are awesome the rear beam guide was outstanding. The main questions I have are to do with the engine/gearbox and wiring.

 

So the engine set up plan-

 

After reading kyepan's rebuild thread a thousand times I couldn't agree more with what he has done and has my full respect, I'm not trying to imitate but to learn from and hopefully expand.

 

My goal is to reach and hopefully go just beyond the 200hp mark but also to bring the torque curve in at the lower rpm range as kyepan has, I don't want to be revving the hell out of it just to get the power out of it.

 

So my intention-

 

1) Standard crank running forged rods and Pistons to raise the compression ratio and durability.

2) Peter T stage 2 inlet cam and maybe stage 1 exhaust.

3) TB's and mapped ecu.

4) Wasted spark set up

5) exhaust tbc

 

So to start off with my understanding from research - at this point I should say that I'm a civil engineer not mechanical and the whole point of me doing this is to understand and learn as much as I can because frankly I absolutely love this car with a passion...... Even the misses won't let me get rid of it because of how much I've hung on to it even through hard times but anyway the build.

 

1) I've chosen forged Pistons for a few reasons- durability, possible future upgrades and compression ratio without taking life away from decking the block or out of the head. I've read about honing/boring the liners but won't know until I strip the lump what condition they are in, my main questions with the Pistons are

 

Shape- I assume domed are ideal for a few reasons but I am unsure as to exactly how they are measured for valve reliefs and for swirl. From what I have read the dome helps to swirl the air and fuel so that when ignition happens the fuel is easier to ignite as compression makes it more resilient to ignition? I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more to it than that but this is my understanding so far.

 

Dimensions - I have yet to find what would be the standard measurements for the stroke BDC to TDC from factory and how you check this I assume it's a straight edge across the deck and measurement down the bore to top of piston until I read the largest figure, and again at TDC until I read the smallest, what accuracy is needed? I'm afraid I'm a metric man and struggle with inches (not that the misses has complained might I add before someone else does) and assume this would not change with forged? The standard combustion chamber of the head is 39cc? Then allow for head gasket? To raise cr can the piston travel to the very top of the liner or is that a no no? Again valve clearances come in, from what I understand while say no.1 is in ignition cycle no.3 is in exhaust so valves will be open when TDC or is the cam setup to put valves in different phases per cylinder? Any references instead of someone explaining it if easier would be very much appreciated. The reason I ask is that will I need a longer rod or is it just in the piston shape that gives you increased cr?

 

Obviously the piston and cam profile need to work together so if I were to use peters stage 2 cam these are the bits I need to understand. More duration more air/fuel ready for compression?

 

3) throttle bodies- omex, jenvies, longmans or custom bike ones. What is the actual difference of the main manufacturers ones? I understand that they are better as they have been designed and fabricated for this engine but bike ones are obviously a mash together of components so it depends on build quality- with my intended set up would I be better off with one of the main ones? Also what is better dual injectors or just one bigger injector per body? I assume the internal diameter the bigger the better? Also from what I understand the tract length is a section that calms the rushing vortex travelling through or controls how the air and fuel swirl/mix into the chamber? Sorry if my terminology is off I'm just trying to understand it all.

 

4&5) I will ask later as your probably bored of reading this dribble by now but I understand the wasted spark has to have enough amps to ignite the compressed air/fuel at the right time. And exhaust will be what's required, I'm just not sure if the exhausts are meant to add a sort of back pressure or just flow out as quick as possible.... Either way it would be custom I assume, sad I know but somehow if feasible I would love to keep the standard size back box and tip so it looks completely standard and I'm not a big fan of excessive big bores each to their own and all that.

 

But apologies if the above is far too many questions or nonsense but I would really appreciate your comments and advise.

 

Many thanks

Shane.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Sounds like a good build.

I have an mi16 on jenvey throttle bodies, cams and some head work; netting me about 195bhp.

I also run an mi16 box, for me the best for this engine.

Have a read through my rebuild thread to start you off.

 

Jenvey make throttle bodies but there are also other custom ones available. There are pros and cons for all of course. Personally I'd go Jenveys or satchell custom ones. Don't bother with bike bodies or mega squirt ECU, cheaper but very much Diy.

 

ECU wise choose what your mapper is a specialist in.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Seems to be black season at the moment, But As above many ways to go but you need to think of where you want it to be in the long term, doing things bit by bit works out expensive, a std engine will take a good 200bhp and a mild spec 230 ish, pistons please don't go for the wossner or PEC route as with everything you get what you pay for, cam's I would just go for some CAT CAM's or Kent

Compressions ratio's etc I would keep near std again unless your looking to build a 270+ engine, flow rates again the std head is fine with some cleaning up and thats fine, it flows too much as it is in std form.

 

Loads of searching to see all the options, mind not all are right

[petert 586]

1. Pistons & Bore.

I disagree with Miles. It goes a lot better at 10.8:1 than it does at 10.4:1. Do a search for a thread by Sweetbadger about thinner Cometic gaskets. It's more than likely you'll have worn bores (unless the engine has been stored in moth balls) and you'll need oversize pistons anyway. In which case, you can get by with a flat top piston and deck the liners to achieve 10.8-11:1 max. Any dome will see the compression over 11:1. Also make sure your pistons are rod centred, the same as the std piston, to suit the Mi16 rod. Most aren't and flop around with excessive rod side clearance.

 

If by chance you can get by with standard pistons and new rings, just deck the liners to obtain zero deck height.

 

2. Camshaft selection

If you've got heaps of money then buy a new billet cam(s). Mi16's don't need a lot of camshaft to make serious hp. Do a search for Dr Sarty's build thread. I run a reground solid exhaust cam on my race car and it makes 250+hp.

 

3. ECU

Don't be sucked into a multipoint/batch fire fuel setup. Find someone who understands the importance of sequential injection. It doesn't make any difference for the max hp figure, but how often will you be there? You want the torque that sequential unlocks, for that shove in the back.

 

4. Inlet

Satchell - because again, you want the torque, not just the total hp

 

5. Exhaust

Maniflow - again, you want the torque, not just the total hp

 

6. Head

Just make sure it's reco'd back to original. That means starting off with guides, CNC cut seats and setting the springs to 90lbs seat pressure. If you can't get 90lbs with reshimming, buy some PAC-S90011 springs. Again however, make sure they're shimmed to 90lbs. Throwing in new springs and hoping for the best is very unprofessional.

 

7. Injectors

New.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Problem in the UK is finding someone to bore and hone liners correctly so by the time you have found someone who can do it (Allot say yes and fail), just as easy to buy a new std set

 

As your over Kent way Omex would be the way to go, loads of mappers around there

 

Clio Injectors are handy, cheap new and good spray pattern's.

 

Exhaust, see me

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

Sounds like a good build.

I have an mi16 on jenvey throttle bodies, cams and some head work; netting me about 195bhp.

I also run an mi16 box, for me the best for this engine.

Have a read through my rebuild thread to start you off.

Jenvey make throttle bodies but there are also other custom ones available. There are pros and cons for all of course. Personally I'd go Jenveys or satchell custom ones. Don't bother with bike bodies or mega squirt ECU, cheaper but very much Diy.

ECU wise choose what your mapper is a specialist in.

Thanks Simon, that must have been sole destroying when you first found the crash! But utmost respect for not giving up and carrying on and to the level of standard and your final outputs must be very rewarding,

 

I have read up about the different boxes and am still unsure, the mi be3 having a compromise between the 1.6 & 1.9 ratios so best of both and would assume it ultimately comes down to driver preference? The reason I would like to stay with my 1.9 be1 is because I know it, how it feels and nothing going amiss (and partly because I was a mug and bought an aftermarket be1 gear knob off eBay for £50 just to stay in keeping) other than the obvious reverse selector cable is there any pitfalls for me to still use the be1? I can't seem to find much info in using them on conversions?

 

With Peter also siding with satchel I will have a look.

 

Seems to be black season at the moment, But As above many ways to go but you need to think of where you want it to be in the long term, doing things bit by bit works out expensive, a std engine will take a good 200bhp and a mild spec 230 ish, pistons please don't go for the wossner or PEC route as with everything you get what you pay for, cam's I would just go for some CAT CAM's or Kent

Compressions ratio's etc I would keep near std again unless your looking to build a 270+ engine, flow rates again the std head is fine with some cleaning up and thats fine, it flows too much as it is in std form.

 

Loads of searching to see all the options, mind not all are right

Hi miles I have been on your website and have already clocked your manifolds which hopefully in the next few months I will be placing an order.

There has been a few black ones recently and when they are polished up they do gleam.

 

To be honest I still need the car to manageable on the road, I'm sure a lot more thought will be need towards the drivetrain and suspension/brakes as well but the number in my head is between the 230-250bhp mark but as Peter has said its the torque that drives me, the standard engine was such an amazing feeling from 1st to 3rd the grin just lasts forever as even now I can still remember that feeling and this is something I must have. I remember test driving the 206 180 and in my opinion it was just tame, I'm sure it isn't slow in the slightest but it felt just too refined and comfortable, the 205 was built to be raw if that makes sense.

 

These are items I'm looking at, at the moment like you say about the wossner Pistons you pay for what you get and I'm a firm believer in going that little extra to achieve a better quality, Pistons are expensive no matter what so a little bit more money gives you peace of mind and I would imagine better gains. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. I've looked at wiseco ones which were mentioned by Peter in another post but somebody popped up with concerns-- I do understand that there is more than one way to do things and everybody has an opinion based on what they know or have experienced or what their mate told them after their 5th round down the local but I believe I can see who is talking from hard actual experience which cannot be beaten.

 

Thanks for confirming the flow of the head as I was going to ask if anything other than what Peter has said needs to be done, I was trying to stay away from big valve head which needs a bigger piston anyway?

 

With cams from my understanding is that the inlet valve needs to allow the full capacity of the cylinder to be filled with air/fuel to its maximum capacity by the time the piston hits Bdc before it starts coming up for compression? If it closes too early then the remainder of the piston travel to Bdc is not filled and if too late then essentially the same thing? So the main constraints are prior to the head (inlet manifold) and the science in how it all swirls and mixes which I'm not even going to ask about.

 

Hi Peter,

 

1) as miles has said and i have read up about I'm not sure if I could trust anyone to do it right, I have spotted some ductile iron new ones from Westwood cylinder liners, would you guys mind having a quick look and opinions? Would you think there would be any need for further work to them? Would they come cross hatched and is there a coating required?

Sorry but if I were to get domed Pistons this would negate the need to deck the liners? Also what is the drawbacks of a thinner gasket? I've already read about the copper gaskets and will avoid them.

Duly noted about the rods thank you.

While on rods any recommendations? And also bearings?

 

2) I don't have heaps of money but enough to do this properly, if a cheaper one achieves the same as the expensive one with no sacrifice to reliability then I would happily settle for the cheaper. This project has been a long time coming and I have put all my priorities above this to hold my own...., now it's me time

Out of interest what would be a reasonable price for a billet cam? Also on your website you mention the exhaust flows well enough to not need modifying in most cases, would my build require this?

 

 

3) apologies but I am seriously lacking in wiring and ecu control understanding, I get the principles though I think, by batch firing you mean the wasted spark I.e 1 & 3 fire at the same time, you would recommend individual coil packs for each cylinder so the power is focused onto one cylinder instead of splitting and wasting power on a cylinder not needing it? I suppose more charge focused results in a bigger detonation? I assume omex emerald etc ecu's all allow custom control over any set up I use? And it will be these that control ignition timing. Also would knock sensor be advisable?

 

4 & 5) I understand the difference between Hp and torque but it would be nice to understand what elements of the engine generate or greatly affect either of them, have you guys got any recommendations on reading material?

 

6) can anyone recommend a good machinist in kent or further if necessary? I've read that a lot of people don't cut the seats right but I suppose with modern machinery it's pretty hard not to but all the same if you have experience with them I'd feel more comfortable. What would your thoughts be on solid lifters Peter? I suppose talking about all of this I don't even know what state they are in yet!

 

7) i assume there's a magic rule of thumb with these? A ratio between air and fuel per litre or something? Plus the spray pattern allowing better mixture.

 

Thanks a lot guys for taking time to read and put your thoughts forward it means a lot as I have been literally absorbing everything I have been reading and trying to fathom out what I want and how to get there, my last question is how will this all affect the car in respect to mot emissions? I noticed Simon had a few preloaded maps for such occasions but surely the components need to be set to run a certain way otherwise it will throw it out in other ways?

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

Apologies guys I need to learn to say what I want in smaller sentences!

[petert 586]

1. Pistons/liners - Mi16 pistons usually have a long life, thanks to the oil squirters. As Miles suggested, an option is to buy new liners and new rings, re-using the original pistons. You can't make this call until you strip the engine. I'd still send the liners to Paul Gardias to deck the liners. Then you can use a standard head gasket to achieve a more desirable CR and squish height. A dome impedes flame travel. A better result is achieved with a flat top piston. Ask the reco man to close and hone the std rods. They'll be fine for your application.

 

2. If the exhaust cam is in good condition you can put it straight back in; if that's the type of power range you're after. PM/email for pricing.

 

3. Certainly use wasted spark. It's cheap and easy to find suitable coil set ups. With multipoint fuel, all the injectors fire at the same time, twice per engine cycle. Thus some cylinders get a good shot, others don't, at lower RPM's. A full noise, the injectors are open nearly all the time, whether multipoint or sequential.

 

4. and 5.

Google and buy a book by Graham Bell on 4 stroke tuning.

 

6. Paul Gardias. Mail/courier if you have to. Solid lifters are unnecessary and expensive for your application. Labour setup time is significant.

 

7. Unless someone is giving you injectors, I'm not sure why you'd bother, given the price of new ones now. 2nd hand injectors always need to be serviced & flow tested. Why would you put an unknown injector into a brand new motor? It doesn't make any sense.

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-FUEL-INJECTORS-UPGRADE-SUIT-FORD-FALCON-BA-BF-XR6-TURBO-440cc-42LB-0280155968-/291549069064?hash=item43e1adbf08:g:ZeMAAOSw3ydV3cSb

 

Same part number in Bosch is 3x more expensive, but still relatively cheap compared to reco'd price.

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

I thought I would upload a few photos of progress made so far,

 

This was the beam when first removed about 2 weeks ago.

 

 

And with the trailing arms off

 

 

I did have new shafts pressed in but forgot to get a pic but this is once reassembled,

 

 

Today I managed to get a couple of hours, I got the front up on stands and tidied the wiring up by unknotting it this was how it was left once I towed it here a couple of years ago now!

 

 

I need to figure out what wiring I can remove now so it's manageable. I also spotted a couple of bits of rust by each wing running down the seams towards the lights, I didn't want to tackle them today just incase I didn't have time to seal them up. I really wanted to start on the subframe but the bloody hub balljoint securing nut got caught up at the top of the thread and the balljoint kept spinning, I put pressure on it using the jack but still spun! I wire brushed and cleaned up the thread prior but still snagged. Any suggestions other than the nut cutter tool?

 

I ordered the m10 bolts for securing the engine on the stand. Need to thoroughly clean the garage prior to stripping but will be nice to just get it off the ground.

 

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

I'm building a list for the machinists so far I have,

 

Acid dip and clean everything,

 

Pressure tests for cracks in head and block

 

Check and polish crank

 

Close and hone rods

 

Check block deck flatness

 

Check head and recut 3 angle seats

 

Check valves aren't bent

 

Recut liner seats? Are these commonly in a bad way nowadays?

 

As I am going forged Pistons and new liners (unless the current ones are in good shape) but will get in touch with Paul about decking the liners either way.

 

Is there any head work I should think about other than polishing? The head flows enough without porting?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Wiring, remove all the old ECU stuff, none of it is needed, just remake the sensor loom when wiring in the new ECU

 

Until the blocks apart I would not get too worried, corrosion is a killer these days

 

Pressure testing I have never done and never needed in 28 years, Its not a Ford or Vauxhall

 

I do know of a Steel Longman engine for sale of a mate of mine, dry stored for a few years

 

Are you on FB?, A mate of mine who races a 306 is near you and I can put you in touch

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

The 1.9 box is not a good match for the engine, it's all too long.

There used to be a spreadsheet in here to calculate ratios. It was fashionable once to mix and match from various boxes......

 

Inner wing rust, there's a Dutch guy remaking and selling those sections, on FB.

[petert 586]

These are Iapel pistons and give about 11.5:1 on an 83.50mm bore. To be used correctly with Mi16 rods, the inside needs to be machined parallel and thrust washers made, as per the pic. Alternately, bush 8V rods.

[Kane 34]

Make sure you have the valve guides checked when everything is away. Don't want to spend all that money getting seats/valves recut to find out after the guides are goosed also.

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

Apologies for not replying to posts but it's been a manic week.

 

Yesterday whilst everyone was out enjoying the sun and scenery it brings with it I was in my garage with the old man stripping the block down. As I progressed down I was wondering why as everything looked spot on, the combustion chamber was pretty heavy with carbon and the head looks a touch rusty but not pitted and the head gasket looked pretty new, the liner bores were spot on but there was little spots of rust on the outside down near the seats. When we got the crank and bearings out these looked absolutely spot on the money, I still have to clean it all up and send off to the machinists hopefully this weekend but I'm more than happy how it all looks.

 

Pics below

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[petert 586]

Fairly standard fare. You need to look for a wear patch, approx. 30mm down from the top of the liner, on the thrust side.

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

I had a feel down the bores and could not feel anything by touch apart from roughly 5-10mm down you can feel it sort of round which I assume is standard? It sort of bulges. I have a bore gauge and micrometers turning up this week to check taper and out of round.

 

I need to get in contact with Paul gadias as well once I check if these liners are ok and was thinking of sending the block and liners to him. I need the deck checking and then liners decked and taken out to 83.5mm. How much can be taken off the deck as you said before I want to achieve 11.5:1.

 

How to I measure the head? Do I just need to measure the combustion chamber for its cc?

[petert 586]

0.38mm needs to come off the deck to achieve zero deck height with a std piston. That gives 10.8:1. You'll need to give him the new pistons as well to measure, before he can bore the liners.

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

I have contacted iapel and just awaiting a reply, I need to get the Pistons and cams enroute.

 

I also contacted sandy about the Satchell tb's but he said to make contact with Colin I noticed on another thread they may have stopped making tb's for this engine which I hope not! From what I've read those two are the best about for the set up, but to be honest all the ancillaries are a little way off at the moment as I want to get the engine build properly squared away, so far the plan is

 

Strip the head down

 

Finish cleaning all the engine parts as best I can.

 

Measure liners to see whether they're worth keeping

 

Measure crank journals to see if requiring a regrind

 

Get iapel Pistons sorted

 

Send all off to machinists for:

 

Cleaning

 

Check block deck (I assume this can remain standard if iapel offer an 11.5:1 piston)

 

Get mi16 rods bushed for Pistons

 

3 angle seats

 

Valve guides (thanks Kane)

 

Lobe reliefs for cams

 

Skim the head

 

Check valves

 

Also I need to get the valve springs sorted

 

Work is just flat out at the moment but seriously need to start ordering parts!

 

As Simon said earlier I need to look at the gearbox yet, I didn't think the ratios were that far apart so fair comment. I do have the mi16 box but no idea of condition, can't believe I paid 50 bloody quid for a be1 gear knob I don't need now!

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

Oh and bore liners to 83.5mm

[welshpug 1,657]

Colin still makes an inlet, but its a dcoe pattern to use the jenvey tb/th type bodies rather than bike bodies.

 

Still allows for a decent length and curve to the tract, but much less work to produce, similar cost to the compromised jenvey/longman type.

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

Right it's been awhile but am still going with it, past month has been hectic split from the misses and having the kids when not working so only a few hours each weekend actually doing stuff although last Sunday I actually got the whole day with the old man so dropped the front sub frame out and cleaned it up........ Used a wire wheel on my makita drill...... This literally took all day and ran out of time to paint it, this Saturday I should get the full day in it and I've booked a couple of days off in a week which I'll spend on it. Will get new drop links and track rod ends while it's off and then put it back up, need to look at engine mounts I don't want them too hard if I can help it.

 

 

I also got the cylinder block, sump and spacer acid dipped and I want to paint it with vht grey paint so it doesn't look so dull.

 

I've ordered a set of omega high comp Pistons which should arrive next week hopefully so I can send them off with the liners to be bored out. Looking into cams and bearings at the moment but everything is priced for once I make my mind up. Apart from stripping the ignition loom out and sorting the bits of rust out near the wings I think I will be rebuilding it all within the next 3-4 weeks I hope! I find myself daydreaming what it's going to be like when this is up and running. I might be getting the s16 thermostat housing to run cam position sensor so need to look into plumbing as well, and then what coils and leads I need, I've seen that LS1 or 2 coils get used but lead lengths are an issue.

 

Oh and one thing I keep forgetting is the gearbox, I have no idea of its condition or what the hell to look for or to do to check it while it's off but could do without a rebuild cost of it, does anyone know a good guide or info/ suggest what to look for? The bell housing and outside was covered in so much grease and dirt but I've cleaned it up a bit now.

 

Shane

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

So I have been looking into gearbox rebuild and have a question-

 

I have-

 

1.9 be1 gear box

 

Mi16 be3 gearbox

 

Can anyone see any potential issues from transferring the mi16 be3 shafts and gears (apart from reverse) into the 1.9be1 box? Also everyone compares the 1.6 and mi ratios but not the 1.9, I understand that the 1.6 is shorter ratios but I'm not building a track car and although it would probably do my head in on longer trips sitting in the cam range and does it really make all that much more difference?

 

I have no idea of the condition of the mi box so I do want to strip and rebuild so why not transfer it to my be1 and keep it in keeping with the car at the same time . Any pitfalls I need to keep an eye open for and I assume can still buy bearings etc?

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Stick with the mi16 box, it's the best compromise. 1.9 ratios don't make the best of the engine.

Why do you want to transfer the internals?

[Shane17 7 1 Cars]

I'm starting to think your a mi16 be3 salesman simes

 

Well I don't have a clue what condition the be3 is in until I put it on so thinking a strip down might be best, so if I'm doing it anyway and my car is already set up for a be1 why not transfer the internals so my car can sort of stay (contradiction I know) standard? I know I've got some funny ways.