Oil Leak: Removing A Cam Bearing Cap / Changing A Cam Seal

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

I have had the head reconditioned on my 1.9 8V 205 1FM and it is all fitted and running like a dream, however there is an oil leak which was not there before I refitted the cylinder head. Oil had dripped off and onto the driveshaft so it was hard to tell where it had originated, especially as the oil is golden and clean 10-40 at the moment. I have pressure washed the engine and run it up to temperature and I get a small drip from the bottom of the cam belt covers. It seems to originate from under the top cam pulley cover and run down the back of the block.

 

I have checked the rocker cover gasket and it doesn't appear to be that as it appears dry underneath it and the gasket is new. There is no oil on the belt at all (phew). So rather than let it disgrace itself like an incontinent granny, I'd like to get it fixed!

 

When the head was done it had a new cam seal (Payen), so I don't think it is that. However I think it may be weeping under the bearing cap as I don't know if the head refurbishers put any sealant on or not.

• Is it possible to remove the bearing cap to put sealant underneath it without talking the cambelt and pulley off?
• When applying sealant, what is the best to use (will household bathroom silicone suffice?)
• When torquing up the bearing cap, is it 15Nm or do people use more for a good seal?

 

Many thanks,

 

Henry

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Yep just take it off, I know allot don;t add sealant as it's one thing I always check

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

H, I wouldn't use household bathroom sealant, you want a decent high temperature sealant imo.

 

g

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WURTH-RTV-silicone-BLACK-200-ML-/271870298799?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f4cbb8aafThis,

Edited June 7, 2015 by Miles

[Alastairh 47]

I've had good results with Halfords Loctite 200ml black instant gasket. It comes with a metal trigger handle and can be sealed and reused. Cheap on trade card.

 

Al

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Cheers guys. 15Nm should be fine with sealant then? I don't want to strip any threads etc like those pesky rocker cover bolts!

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

I had a look at this leak tonight. Many thanks to Graham for the sealant which arrived in the post which spurred me on.

 

It was difficult to spot exactly where the oil was coming from and I did a lot of poking about with cotton buds but not massivly successful. However I did notice that the cam seal was sticking out significantly and when I compared this to my spare head, it didn't look right.

 

So I removed the bearing cap and saw this:

 

It didn't look right!

 

So I pushed it back flush and applied a very thin layer of sealant to the mating surfaces and torqued it up. I also put a layer in the seal face just in case the cam seal was working its way out as I am sure I would have spotted the seal sticking out so much when I fitted the cam pulley:

 

I have run it up til the fans came on and no leaks as yet

 

 

[dcc 855]

Same happened to me on way to pugfest last year. Replaced the seal and no issues since

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Fingers crossed that the seal that is in there (was a new Payen one) will stay in situe. If not it's, cam belt and pulley off and a new seal.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I have had this in 1 engine, the seal for some reason works it's way out no matter what seal is used, The fix was to run the old PTS seal retaining bracket, basically a alloy cover over the seal

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

So a year later and the seal is popping out all the time. This is the cause of the oil leak I have removed the bearing cap again and cleaned up the flat mating faces as it was not leaking from those. The seal will push back in with ease so the seal housing has either enlarged or the seal (Payen) is undersized.

 

I have bought a genuine Peugeot seal (Part Number 0807 32 @ £13 with PSC discount) now to see if that will fit and solve the issue. I noticed that the design is slightly different as the Peugeot one is slightly wider and only has a 45 degree taper on one side.

 

I took the timing belt off (god I hate belt covers and the fatter aircon bottom pulley), and also the cam wheel, cam cover and bearing cap off to get the seal out as I had pushed it back in with a screwdriver previously.

 

So once out, I did some measurements and the Payen and the Peugeot one are quite different, so here are my findings for reference:

 

Peugeot on the left, Payen on the right

 

Conclusion:

The Peugeot seal seems to be a better design as it is wider and has squarer shoulders and more ridges. The Payen seal has a wound spring to provide the tension on the seal lip, where the Peugeot one has a plate whicj is notched and under tension. I was surprised that the Payen one seemed not to standard as I regarded them as a quality part and perhaps even the original equipment manufacturer.

 

Hopefully it will solve my leakage issues as is 0.2mm wider in diameter, but I am debating whether to glue it in anyway whilst it is all apart or fit it dry, using the old seal as a spacer to press the new seal in, using the cam pulley as a flat plate and winding the bolt in. Once in, I can remove the pulley and the old seal and torque up the bolt. It is hard to tap a socket in as a press when in situe.

[dcc 855]

for what it is worth, pugfest 2 years ago my camseal popped out on the way there. I changed it for a febi item, the febi was noticeably thicker but i didnt measure it. no issues and had done nearly 10k. not sure on brand of original

[toolie72 67 1 Cars]

Hmm quite a difference in sizes, really not much excuse for it is there-as usual it's the punter that gets the grief

Bought my car 21 years ago now and when I bought it genuine parts were far superior (and pretty reasonable really) but as parts depts have clean desks now and as Peugeot stocks run out then we all have to rely on "better" "brands" spare parts and I personally find it a right pain in the arse when you spend money and the parts crap-I sometimes feel sorry for the guy at the factors-he sells you stuff with a smile then 3 hrs later you go back grumpy and ruin the poor sods day (not his fault,call me meldrew!!)

On a brighter note-an engineering trick is to use a centre punch! Couple of taps on surface (taps not batters) will cause your centre mark but it will also lift surrounding area-done quite often if you have a slightly worn bearing housing, it's enough to grip outer surface of the bearing to stop it spinning, frowned upon yes but it might grip the outer surface of your seal enough to stop it popping

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

New cam seal has been fitted (not glued, not centre-punched) and I have done about 10 miles of a hard blast around the Peak District and all seems find so far. More miles are really needed for a definitive answer.

 

So, unless I just had a duff one, the Payen one which came with the head set was undersized for my 1992 Catted 1.9 engine. Buy a genuine one if you are doing this, or at least measure to make sure the seal is greater than 50mm

[DamirGTI 342]

If i'm not mistaken , OE supplied seal brand/make is 'Corteco' ...

 

If it really is or not , its what i usually work with (part of the reason , my local parts store always has an stash of corteco seals) and never had such sealing problems .. but need to note also , any shaft seal no matter the brand/make - the inner part of the seal must be lubed up prior to fitting otherwise the fine sealing lip tends to 'burn off' when the engine starts initially on dry fitted seal .

 

 

D

 

Blow-by can also pop the cam seal out , i remember my mate had an 309 gti back in the days which did this so often neither one of the seals type/brand didn't work , was because of the worn out engine/block found while doing a leak down test .

Edited May 23, 2016 by DamirGTI

[toolie72 67 1 Cars]

Great to hear-I think you'll just need to make sure you get the oil really hot to be doubly sure-or does that sound too much like trying to justify taking car for a thrash lol