New 205 Gti - Shoddy Conversion

[theoilburner 7]

Evening All,

 

I have recently purchased a 205 gti. She was originally a 1.6 on an 'H' plate but has had a 1.9 conversion fairly recently. This brings problems straight away as I don't have the details from the donor vehicle which makes ordering parts pretty tricky.

 

I knew all of this before I bought it but the combination of spotless interior, refurbished 1.9 wheels, new suspension and brakes all round, miami blue in colour and the fact that it was local and I couldn't resist. I have always wanted a 205 gti and had a smile ear to ear when driving back.

 

Now the problems:

 

Misfire:

So she idles like a dream (best of the ones that I test drove). But when under load she misfires horrendously. This lessens when the car is warm but is still fairly bad.

 

Very common problem I know. I have fitted a refurbished dizzy with working vacuum advance unit. I have also fitted a new induction kit as previous one had splits in the hoses. The AFM was from a 1.6 not a 1.9 so I have bought the correct AFM and fitted that. The oil breather canister was missing it's cap so a new one of those has been ordered (awaiting delivery). Also the large hose that comes from the bottom of the oil canister was kinked and perished so need a new one of those (talking to Baker BM at the moment).

 

After all of this is fitted I will have it set up at my fave local garage who will set the mixture and optimise the timing. Hopefully this sorts the misfire! In the meantime any other suggestions on what it could be are appreciated.

 

The Battery won't charge:

Suspected dodgy alternator earth as the problem just appeared overnight! But the earth was fine. So I have ordered an alternator and new battery. Will see if this solves the problem

 

Wiring:

Lots of melted, dodgy connections in the glovebox / fusebox. Does anyone know where I can find complete wiring diagrams online? Also, there are two "mystery wires" under the bonnet. The first on goes to a brown plug and comes from near the flywheel housing, am I correct in assuming this was for Peugeot diagnostic equipment? The second mystery wire is a very odd one, I can't explain it so will need to get a photo.

 

Current list of things not functioning:

- Windscreen washer (front & rear)

- Heater fan

- Front foglights

- Oil level gauge

- Fuel gauge

- Rear heated screen not working

 

Engine Identification:

How do I identify my engine? Any pointers as to how I can conclusively prove which engine I have would be great.

 

I am also after some diagrams on how the different oil cooler systems work inc. hoses and original part numbers.

 

Thanks in advance for all your help, I would get some pictures but she is at the garage at the moment.

 

 

[theoilburner 7]

Forgot to say I have also ordered a replacement ignition amplifier (second hand Bosch blue with part number 0 227 100 123) as I know that could contribute to the misfire issue.

 

I am ruling things out one at a time and at the very least am slowly replacing everything in the engine bay!!!

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Welcome, these are quite standard problems.

Most of your answers are on this forum. Search in Google 205gtidrivers plus what you're after. A hAynes manual would be a good buy for looms and pipe work.

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

Misfire could be your HT leads breaking down under load

[j_turnell 137 3 Cars]

1.9 should have a spacer on the sump and yellow injectors. I'd check the ecu has been changed also. The number on it should end in 9 if it's 0 or 6 most likely a 1.6 item.

 

I would give it a good service if you haven't already, plugs, leads, cap and arm etc etc.

[theoilburner 7]

Thanks for the warm welcome. The mystery wire comes from the ECU and is brown. On my vehicle it is then spliced into a multiplug and comes out as a white wire. Where is this supposed to go to? Is it supposed to be spliced and then go into a white wire? I am guessing some kind of engine sensor (crank position or the like).

 

If this information is too vague I will try and get a photo.

 

Thanks,

 

Ashley

[Anthony 1,003]

Brown wire on the multiplug may well be the alternator exciter wire - that's usually brown and is wire 7A.

 

Does the battery light on the dash come on when you switch the ignition on?

 

If that wire isn't connected, the battery light won't come on with ignition and the alternator won't charge until you rev the engine high enough for it to self-excite, so could well be responsible for your charge/battery issue.

 

To be honest, a 1.6 to 1.9 conversion is as straight forward as they come - the wiring loom etc is all the same, just the ECU and AFM that need to be swapped along with the complete engine inc injectors, dizzy etc.

[theoilburner 7]

Brown wire on the multiplug may well be the alternator exciter wire - that's usually brown and is wire 7A.

 

Does the battery light on the dash come on when you switch the ignition on?

 

If that wire isn't connected, the battery light won't come on with ignition and the alternator won't charge until you rev the engine high enough for it to self-excite, so could well be responsible for your charge/battery issue.

 

To be honest, a 1.6 to 1.9 conversion is as straight forward as they come - the wiring loom etc is all the same, just the ECU and AFM that need to be swapped along with the complete engine inc injectors, dizzy etc.

 

thanks for this! There is already two wires connected to the alternator, the main red one and a smaller one. How many wires should be attached to the alternator?

 

Thanks for all your help, really appreciated.

Ashley

[Anthony 1,003]

thanks for this! There is already two wires connected to the alternator, the main red one and a smaller one. How many wires should be attached to the alternator?

Two - thick red that which is the main +12v feed to the battery, and a thin brown that is the exciter/warning light wire.

[theoilburner 7]

Two - thick red that which is the main +12v feed to the battery, and a thin brown that is the exciter/warning light wire.

 

Hmm the mystery wire is still unexplained then as those two wires are already connected to the alternator. Any other brown wiring that comes from the same area? Will try and get a picture but have left the car at my trusted garage (the owner used to rally these) and struggle to get there as I start work before they open and finish after they close.

 

Thanks for the help again.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Windscreen washers could be a number of things.

Switch.

Poor earths at front and rear.

Or both!

[theoilburner 7]

Windscreen washers could be a number of things.

Switch.

Poor earths at front and rear.

Or both!

 

Cheers will check the earths out on the washers; they are slightly further down the priority list at the minute though.

 

Any more ideas on my mystery brown wire coming from ECU area? Haynes Wiring Diagrams are super confusing (black and white makes this even worse).

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

I’d start by listing the components you have to make sure it is a 1.9 as something as obvious as the wrong AFM makes me assume other parts are wrong too.
I.e.

AFM number :
ECU Number:
Distributor Number:

Vac Advance number: (Written on the arm of the VAC advance inside the dizzy)
Ignition AMP number: (I’m not sure if these are different to 1.6 Or 1.9, but someone on here will confirm)
Injector Colour: (Yellow 1.9, Blue 1.6)

Block Number:
Even though it has a spacer it doesn’t confirm it a 1.9 as sumps come in different depths. Unless you know the engine hasn’t been touched from factory then the spacer is only an assumption on the engine size.
Using the block number is a safer bet as it’s hard stamped on a face near the alternator. See the main site for all codes but the most common ones are B6D = 1.6 and D6B = 1.9
There is also the possibility that code is wrong as the 1.6 and 1.9 blocks are the same. The only real way to be sure is to measure the crank stroke and con rod lengths.
An easy way to measure the stroke would be to use a dowel down the spark plug hole and crank the engine by hand marking the top and bottom.

Head Identification:
The 1.6 and 1.9 heads are the same (with the exception of early 1.6’s these mainly had smaller inlet valves and thinner valve springs)
But the Cams are different. Checking the cam could be difficult without a DTI, as I’m not sure if they are marked by factory.
If you can borrow a DTI.(Or buy a cheap ebay one) Then the cam lifts are listed in the Haynes.

If it were me I’d revert it back to 1.6. Saves on log book changes, insurance. Are the rear brakes converted to 1.9 disc set up?
It would probably help the resale value.

Misfire problem (Assuming the it’s not caused by mixed up parts)
A few things id check:
Distributor Fly lead condition and connections.
Spark plugs
HT Leads.
Do a Compression test – Blown head gasket – is it using water? – Exhaust gasses coming out of header tank?
Buy a Gas tester, mixture levels could be way out, has it passed an MOT since the new engine?
Timing Dowels fit in location holes?
Check wiring plug to AFM- Only because this was the cause of my non start problem.

Fuel pressure - Its not got one of those silly power boost valve on it? is the vac pipe to the fuel pressure regulator ok?

ECU temp sensor plugged in? wiring to it ok?

Air leaks around manifold?

 

 

Edited March 17, 2015 by ALEX

[theoilburner 7]

I’d start by listing the components you have to make sure it is a 1.9 as something as obvious as the wrong AFM makes me assume other parts are wrong too.

I.e.

AFM number : Is now correct

ECU Number: Is correct (ends in a 9)

Distributor Number: Is correct

Vac Advance number: (Written on the arm of the VAC advance inside the dizzy) Is correct

Ignition AMP number: (I’m not sure if these are different to 1.6 Or 1.9, but someone on here will confirm) Is correct, just fitted a new Bosch blue amp as the old one was a generic name

Injector Colour: (Yellow 1.9, Blue 1.6) Yellow

 

Block Number:

Even though it has a spacer it doesn’t confirm it a 1.9 as sumps come in different depths. Unless you know the engine hasn’t been touched from factory then the spacer is only an assumption on the engine size.

Using the block number is a safer bet as it’s hard stamped on a face near the alternator. See the main site for all codes but the most common ones are B6D = 1.6 and D6B = 1.9

There is also the possibility that code is wrong as the 1.6 and 1.9 blocks are the same. The only real way to be sure is to measure the crank stroke and con rod lengths.

An easy way to measure the stroke would be to use a dowel down the spark plug hole and crank the engine by hand marking the top and bottom.

Head Identification:

The 1.6 and 1.9 heads are the same (with the exception of early 1.6’s these mainly had smaller inlet valves and thinner valve springs)

But the Cams are different. Checking the cam could be difficult without a DTI, as I’m not sure if they are marked by factory.

If you can borrow a DTI.(Or buy a cheap ebay one) Then the cam lifts are listed in the Haynes.

 

If it were me I’d revert it back to 1.6. Saves on log book changes, insurance. Are the rear brakes converted to 1.9 disc set up?

It would probably help the resale value.

Misfire problem (Assuming the it’s not caused by mixed up parts)

A few things id check:

Distributor Fly lead condition and connections.

Spark plugs

HT Leads.

Do a Compression test – Blown head gasket – is it using water? – Exhaust gasses coming out of header tank?

Buy a Gas tester, mixture levels could be way out, has it passed an MOT since the new engine?

Timing Dowels fit in location holes?

Check wiring plug to AFM- Only because this was the cause of my non start problem.

Fuel pressure - Its not got one of those silly power boost valve on it? is the vac pipe to the fuel pressure regulator ok?

ECU temp sensor plugged in? wiring to it ok?

Air leaks around manifold?

 

 

 

 

Have checked all parts you suggested and they are correct. Will look into the other stuff you recommended, thanks.

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

There's two Oil cooler set ups. Water Cooled or Air Cooled.

I think the Water cooled system was developed to make room for the PAS pump.

TBH the engine works fine without it and I don't see the point of it in the UK.

[theoilburner 7]

So I have just heard back from my garage. They have had an Auto Electrician look over it and he wants to rip the car apart and replace the entire wiring harness!

 

Does anybody know any 205 specialists as local to me as possible that could look at this for me? If a forum member wants to take it on as a project even better!

 

The ownership of my dream hot hatch has started appallingly badly!

[theoilburner 7]

Also if anyone knows where I can source a new wiring harness / harnesses that would be great. Preferably second hand.

 

Also need to know if there are any differences between looms for different years / engine sizes etc ...

 

Sorry to load my thread with posts but I'm pretty terrified and don't know what to do or where to turn as my garage won't touch it.

 

Thanks,

[theoilburner 7]

 

So my loose wire appears to be the oil temp sensor, but that is working on the dash???!!!!!!

 

Any other options to try for an alternator that isn't charging?

[Anthony 1,003]

The wiring is identical between the 1.6 and 1.9 non-CAT engines of a given age, absolutely identical.

 

There is no reason at all why the garage can't look at it as if it is a 1.6 engine.

 

If you're convinced the loom is shot then I probably have one - coil is on the inlet manifold presumably being an H-reg? I thought you said that the engine ran and drove well though, so I'm not sure what the garage is on about the loom?

 

It's probably a duff alternator in all honesty if it's not charging and the two wires are connected and in good order - check the positive in particular as they're prone to deteriorating badly and eventually breaking off with potentially catastrophic results (as it's an unfused connection straight to the battery). Most original units are on their last legs now and some refurbished ones are hardly any better.

 

If you get really stuck I do come to Redditch every couple of months or so and know my way around a 205 well enough.

[theoilburner 7]

Hi Anthony,

 

Thanks very much for your help and replies. I am fitting another alternator this weekend when I get chance so will be able to update then. The Auto Electrician that looked at it is concerned as there are a number of other issues:

 

- Windscreen washer (front & rear)

- Heater fan

- Front foglights

- Oil level gauge

- Fuel gauge

- Rear heated screen not working

The car did run and drive until the alternator packed up.

Thanks,

Ashley

P.S please let me know the next time you are in Redditch

[pugfrank 14 1 Cars]

Hi Ashley, You are not alone with wiring issues. I purchased my car two years ago and had problems and gremlins with the wiring, that got sorted then the engine block cracked!! new recon engine fitted about year ago, now I am just planning re placing my engine bay wiring loom as it caught fire and caused damage!! Your not alone, when you get the car sorted and hit a B road, a smile will be on your face and all the work/money will be worth it!!

James

[Anthony 1,003]

Thanks very much for your help and replies. I am fitting another alternator this weekend when I get chance so will be able to update then. The Auto Electrician that looked at it is concerned as there are a number of other issues:

 

- Windscreen washer (front & rear)

- Heater fan

- Front foglights

- Oil level gauge

- Fuel gauge

- Rear heated screen not working

There isn't an oil level gauge - there's oil pressure (top left) and oil temperature (top right).

 

Heater fan is probably the resistor module if it doesn't work at all or only on full speed.

 

Front driving lights are probably bad connections on the 2-pin yellow plug that joins each one to the main loom, probably lurking below the headlights. Check the driving light relay too, although that's rarely an issue.

 

Washers are normally dead pumps or - on the front especially - bad connections. The stalk can fail, but if the wipers move when you pull the stalk back for wash/wipe then it's probably OK - if nothing happens it's probably the stalk.

 

I hope that it's a good auto electrician - all too many don't know their a**e from their elbow frankly and I've had to put far too many auto electrician "repairs" (I use the term loosely!) right over the years. That they're seemingly struggling with fairly basic stuff concerns me.

[theoilburner 7]

OK it's the oil temp. gauge that doesn't work, apologies, which marries up with the loose wire that goes nowhere, so that is one problem solved!!!

 

I am concerned by the findings of this Auto Electrician, hence my plea for a second opinion. He said he was concerned by the wiring in the glovebox (main fuseboard?). I will try and get more information and photos.

 

I am just going to try and get the engine running and alternator working and then I can drive it to other people / work on it myself while it is in a usable state.

Edited March 18, 2015 by theoilburner

[jackherer 543]

Apart from the plug for the headlights, which is prone to burning out when excess wattage bulbs are used, the fusebox wiring is normally very reliable despite looking a bit of a mess as standard. TBH an autoelectrician is going to need to spend a lot of time figuring out a 205s foibles whereas someone that knows them will know where to look for the faults in question.

[theoilburner 7]

Apart from the plug for the headlights, which is prone to burning out when excess wattage bulbs are used, the fusebox wiring is normally very reliable despite looking a bit of a mess as standard. TBH an autoelectrician is going to need to spend a lot of time figuring out a 205s foibles whereas someone that knows them will know where to look for the faults in question.

 

I thought this may be the case, which is why I am looking for a 205 specialist that is close to me. If anyone has any recommendations for people to use I would be really grateful.

 

Can I just say I'm amazed at how supportive this forum seems by the way, thanks very much!