Go Diesel Or Not?

[feb 47]

I currently use a Panda 100HP for my commute and do around 1400-1900 miles per month.

 

The average (real-world calculated - not what it's shown on the dashboard) fuel consumption has been 37mpg so far, 90% of it is on motorways and private roads sitting between 70-100 with occasional use of the whole rev range counter.

 

With current petrol prices (£1.12/lt) the cost of fuel is £165-£225 per month.

 

The Panda is a fun to drive car (just need to fit the Konis I have sitting in the garage as it's seriously oversprung from factory) but due to the mileage I do it may be more economical replacing it with a diesel (as much as I would hate both cars in the family being diesels!), I just came across a nice looking 207 1.6 HDI GT with a theoretical fuel consumption of 56mpg.

 

The cost of fuel for the 207 assuming it can really do 56mpg on the motorway on the above speeds (does anyone know its real-world fuel consumption?) would be £130-£176, not an overly massive difference compared with the Panda.

 

What are the maintenance costs of the 207 and how reliable are they?

 

The Panda consumables are cheap and it is easy to work on (apart from replacing the front O2 sensor but that's because I didn't have the right tool), can the same be said for the 207?

 

Would it make sense to swap it for a diesel e.g. a 207 GT? The Panda has only got 35k on the clock so I can probably keep it for another year and sell it for what I paid for it if I am lucky.

 

Buying another car there will most probably be things that need sorting out/replacing so I may have to spend a few £ again which defeats the whole point.

 

Also what are 207s like to drive?

 

What would you do?

 

Decisions decisions...

Edited December 25, 2014 by feb

[DamirGTI 342]

What would you do?

 

Decisions decisions...

 

I'd buy an LPG converted car ... so you can do both switch to petrol for a blast through twisty roads or switch to LPG for daily drive .

 

I have LPG conversion on my 205 and i love it ! .. performance wise it's same petrol vs LPG if not even better on LPG cos it has higher octane rating (105) and my engine has high compression ratio so it goes better on higher octane fuel .

 

D

[feb 47]

An already converted LPG car sounds promising but in the long term I don't know what happens with valve seat recession and the big question is why would someone sell a LPG converted car, hidden problems?

As someone else said LPG is save, save, save, save, pay...

Saying this my dad has converted his Focus and 1.1 Panda on LPG and hasn't had any issues (touches wood) but he has only done around 35-40k km on LPG.

Fuel consumption is about 15-20% higher when using LPG but due to the low price you still make a saving.

Edited December 25, 2014 by feb

[nveeate 78]

I'd stick with the Panda. Was it you that posted a pic of a red one at a petrol station?

 

I'm lucky that I don't do many miles (my cars range from managing 12mpg up to the 205 GTI, whatever that manages!), and despite a lot of cars I've never had to resort to diesel. It doesn't sound like the saving you'd make is worth changing for, unless you've had enough of the Panda anyway.

[feb 47]

Yes, it was me who posted that pic.

No, not fed up of it but I could do with some more power. Saying this a 1.6 HDI GT wouldn't be a lot faster I guess since it will be heavier.

Probably better to save the money and get a second weekend/occasional track day car at some point.

[Biggles 65]

An already converted LPG car sounds promising but in the long term I don't know what happens with valve seat recession and the big question is why would someone sell a LPG converted car, hidden problems?

As someone else said LPG is save, save, save, save, pay...

Saying this my dad has converted his Focus and 1.1 Panda on LPG and hasn't had any issues (touches wood) but he has only done around 35-40k km on LPG.

Fuel consumption is about 15-20% higher when using LPG but due to the low price you still make a saving.

 

If you're worried about valve seat recession then fit a Flashlube kit. The basic kit is £28+VAT. You don't need the more expensive, more complicated ones. 150k miles so far on my Octavia on LPG, the only issue being a vapouriser temperature sensor failure (a new sensor being £20).

[omega 82]

I do about 18000 miles a year for work and until about 3 years ago I ran a diesel but now run a petrol.

now my small petrol does about 40-45mpg and as I can only afford old dervs I find they only do about 50mpg in the real world. and as petrol is 5-7p a liter cheaper petrol works for me.yes I would like lpg and if I can get one at the right price il try it.

Edited December 26, 2014 by omega

[DamirGTI 342]

Modern common rail diesel cars are really nice to drive and quite a bit powerful , but I'd be very careful while buying second hand used one .. cos people often sells them when they reach service interval - problems with injectors , turbocharger , DMF etc. , and parts + labor for fixing them is more expensive than petrol cars .

 

So it goes about the same used LPG vs diesel , people rarely sells them because they got bored and want something other

 

As for the seat erosion issue with LPG - never had any myself neither my mate who does a lot of mileage and is now on his third LPG converted car , and also hes old man who drives LPG cars since the LPG systems came on the market back in the days !

The key for good LPG conversion is careful selection of parts , and of course proper tune/mixture adjustment .. but yes there's an list of cars which engines really don't like LPG (mainly Japanese .. the valves/seat material on them isn't so good for LPG)

 

D

Edited December 26, 2014 by DamirGTI

[Andy_C 50]

I'm averaging high 40's in the vrs which is some way below the rather optimistic "official" figures.

 

Likewise Mrs C averages high 30's in her Megane (1.6 petrol) which again isn't what the book says.

 

I'd keep the Panda - whole heap of fun and not exactly thirsty!

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

I'd steer clear of the 1.6hdi mate. If it's the same as was in the xsara Picasso.

Known for completely sooting up, blowing turbos etc.

 

Go for a 2.0 hdi if you're going to go down that route

I've got a 2.0 hdi with a Remap and it's fast enough to keep me happy

[Anthony 1,003]

A diesel will save you money if that's your primary goal, there's little doubt of that, although the savings won't be massive.

 

I would be a little wary of 1.6 HDi engine models - fundamentally they're OK but they are very fussy about servicing and as such a proper FSH and proof that it's been run on the correct oil is critical otherwise they can suffer badly from turbo oil feed issues due to oil sludge (quickly followed by a failed turbo). It's a problem bad enough that some warranties are now explicitly excluding turbos on cars with that engine, although that said though, it's still a small percentage that are failing given the huge number of cars using that engine (not just PSA but Ford etc too).

 

All that said, remember that unless things are very tight then money isn't everything, and diesel engines can be very lacking in pleasure - it really is the complete opposite of the engine in the Panda for example that thrives on revs and begs to be driven hard, whereas a typical diesel is all about lazy mid-range grunt. I've got a diesel as I'm doing similar miles to you, and it does exactly what it says on the tin, but jumping back into something with a responsive revvy petrol lump you soon realise its shortcomings when it comes to driver enjoyment.

 

TBH, leave home 5 minutes earlier and keep the speed down to 70-80mph tops - you'll gain in terms of fuel economy and keep the pleasure of a revvy petrol in an Italian go-kart. Fuel costs aren't everything, and with the sort of age/mileage diesels you'd likely be looking at for what the Panda owes you, you're potentially sitting on a financial time bomb with expensive bills that can be generated on aging modern diesels - DMF's, DPF's, injectors etc.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Other things to consider are how long you expect to keep either car, and how long you expect to be commuting long distances for. For the small saving in fuel, it's probably not worth changing cars if it's only going to be for a year for example. Based on your calculations above, you would only save between £30-£60 per month, so £360-£720 per year. So you've an opportunity to possibly save £720 per year, but there's always a risk when changing to another used car of expected maintenance costs. Of course the same risk could be applicable to your Panda, but I usually go on the "better the Devil you know" idea, and as said already, maintenance on a diesel is bound to be more expensive.

 

If I was in your shoes, I'd certainly consider going for a diesel IF I actually needed to buy a new car, and IF I was planning to keep the new car for 3+ years. But I don't think it's worth deliberately changing cars, especially when you are happy with the Panda, for the sake of saving a few hundred £ a year that potentially will be eaten up in other ways.

[scbond 15 1 Cars]

As brutal as it may be, why consider selling one car to buy another for the sake of a small saving in fuel when you are willing to spend money on things like Koni shocks? If saving the money mattered so much then don't buy upgraded parts in my mind. You're best sticking with what you have. If the diesel is ageing then you'll also be facing quite high maintenance costs compared to a petrol engine in most cases.

 

And from a Geographer's point-of-view, diesel might go further but the exhaust gases are much much worse. Not that that concerns many people though.

[feb 47]

Happy New Year everyone and thanks for the advice.

We've done over 26k miles with my wife's 120d (now at 101k) and touch wood it has been one of the most reliable and cheapest cars to run requiring only maintenance so far hence the thought of another diesel but maybe we have been lucky (I hope I am not tempting fate now lol).

As mentioned above though, the pleasure of a high revving engine doesn't compare with a lazy diesel and although the latter ticks the boxes and is fun to drive that's mostly due to its good chassis and not the engine.

I'll stick with the Panda for another year at least and see how things go, I like this car.
Anthony, good point about leaving 5 minutes earlier, it requires some restraint though.
Scbond, you are right in principle although I couldn't say no to a bargain that I found for the Konis which are literally as new.

For me, suspension is one of the most important things that makes the car fun to drive and enjoyable (not forgetting the safety factor) so why drive a car that floats to save a couple of hundred pounds?

Edited January 2, 2015 by feb

[scbond 15 1 Cars]

Scbond, you are right in principle although I couldn't say no to a bargain that I found for the Konis which are literally as new.

For me, suspension is one of the most important things that makes the car fun to drive and enjoyable (not forgetting the safety factor) so why drive a car that floats to save a couple of hundred pounds?

 

 

Definitely wasn't a criticism as such. Was mostly pointing out that there are other ways to save without having to get a diesel.

[feb 47]

Resurecting an old thread as I've been spoiled by the misses 120d but she has started using it again and the journey on the Panda can become tiring.

 

What about a 307 2.0 HDI, C4 2.0 HDI or a Focus?

 

I need something more comfortable than the Panda really as I have back problems and the short wheelbase makes the car bouncy (Konis are on the softest setting).

 

Driving position needs to be good, too (in a 1 and 3 series the pedals are offset to the right from the seat which doesn't help with your back unless it's an automatic).

 

What other cars do you suggest?

 

Budget up to £6k (I could spend more but that means there will be less money to spend on a potential future toy), it needs to be comfy, reliable and as low mileage as possible, I don't mind doing a full service but I don't want to start spending big money on a shed really.

Edited August 16, 2015 by feb

[welshpug 1,657]

if you've thought of those three, also think of the volvo c30, same psa dw10ated4 as the three mentioned, or the s40/v50.

 

panda should be less bouncy if you increase the damping.

[feb 47]

if you've thought of those three, also think of the volvo c30, same psa dw10ated4 as the three mentioned, or the s40/v50.

 

panda should be less bouncy if you increase the damping.

 

I'll have a look at the above, thanks.

 

True about the damping. They are in fact at 1/8th from soft.

 

I set them at that to be compliant on bumpy B roads, any harder and it bounces off the ground loosing grip (in fact 1/4th of a turn makes it from driveable to non-driveable) but on motorways it may be better a little stiffer, I have to try I guess.

Edited August 16, 2015 by feb

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Avoid the 307, unless you want a dreary ride. Very spacious, but that's about it. Car for the masses.

 

There is a bit of Drivers love for 306 HDis right now, a few of us off here own them. Cheap to run (If you do your own work), decent to drive (with a remap ) and soak up the miles. I've covered 20k in the last year in mine, and it's not missed a beat.

[Biggles 65]

If you're main consideration is your back problems (which it now seems to be), then keep the Panda and spend £60 on a Back Friend (google it ...). I borrowed my MIL's when I jarred my back falling down their porch stairs and aggrevated an old sports injury - I've now got my own in my very saggy seated 220K mile (LPG) Octavia - they are excellent.

[steve@cornwall 100]

Punto sporting diesel? I have the poverty spec 1.2 and am so impressed even with its puny 69 bhp 8 v.

Would imagine the 130 bhp 6 speed would be a hoot

[feb 47]

Punto sporting diesel? I have the poverty spec 1.2 and am so impressed even with its puny 69 bhp 8 v.

Would imagine the 130 bhp 6 speed would be a hoot

 

I've not heard the best words for the 1.3 Multijet engine, they have their issues.

 

I test drove a C30 yesterday and liked it, it drives like a Focus with a slightly lighter steering when cornering, the damping and gear throw were good, great driving position, light clutch and the engine torquey from low down, it felt so much lighter and responsive/organic than my wife's 1 series (which drives well but everything feels so heavy).

 

It is a bit small for our dog though so I am planning to test drive a V50.

 

I never thought of looking at Volvos but I can now see myself behind the wheel of one if it ticks the boxes, thanks for suggesting Mei!

 

The other thing that surprised me is that the Geartronic one is only 2mpg less efficient than a manual which sounds too good to be true.

 

If only there was a car that can transform from the attack mode to the boring mode and vice versa with a press of a button according to your moods that would be ideal. Am I asking too much?

Edited August 18, 2015 by feb

[welshpug 1,657]

there's a fair few of those but far far more expensive and thirsty usually and they tend not to be "that" boring on the standard setting, can't have it all!