Front End Twitchy When On Power? Help?

[carlh.1 8]

I have just changed my front suspension from koni sport dampers to Gaz gha's with 280lb springs.

I have the tops set to full caster, camber and slight toe out.

 

I'm finding that when getting on the power the car seems to fight me through the steering more then it did on the koni's.

is there anything that will make it more compliant, maybe less caster and change to slight toe in??

 

 

The rest of the set up is

yellow bilstein rear dampers

Toyo r888

Quaife diff

Standard anti roll and torsion bars

 

Any advice would be great.

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

Toe out is your issue, folk with about 160ftlb torque will say it makes the car more lively, folk with forced induction anywhere over 200ftlb and a plate diff will find it makes the car drag itself about all over the road and generally feel awful. Set it parallel then try again.

[welshpug 1,655]

wishbone bushes can cause this.

[carlh.1 8]

That's exactly what it's doing tom, I'll get it in the garage and set it parallel, would taking any caster out of it help it further? The only problem with the top mounts I have are the add camber when l loose caster?

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

Wishbone bushes can cause it but if it's changed as a step change when you've altered the geo then it's the toe out.

Caster get as much on there as you can, it helps turn in. The eccentric mounts are a trade off.

I've done this exact thing myself, tried 30' toe out on my red turbo car, it was absolutely dreadful. Wound a touch off the tracking and the difference was amazing.

[dcc 855]

my car was set parallel but has since been raised 1.5inches which equates to a little bit of toe out. it really really is frantic in the corners with turn in speed, but in a straight line launch it doesnt pull too badly all over the place. Like Tom has mentioned above, I have 160ftlb of torque (ish) and I also have a plate diff, with ePAS (which I think is the same as Tom) - any uneven road surface or even a small bump will try to put you into a bush/verge.

 

At first I found it dreadful - but now I am able to live with it, I have yet to find the front end understeer in a corner, but find myself almost oversteering quite a bit more. I might wind the track rods out slightly and try it parallel again.

[carlh.1 8]

Yes the wishbone bushes are like new. Ye I noticed the turn in was miles better with the Gaz, I suppose that's the joy of adjustable top mounts, it does eat tires a lot quicker with the added camber, I'm getting a lot of feathering on the edge of the tread block. but I can live with that and not much a can do about the power it's trying to put down.

Cheers for the help tom

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Feathering on the inside?

[carlh.1 8]

Sorry Allen that's a stock car term we used to use, ye the back edge of the tread block on the r888's must be rolling over more in the corners and wearing to a thin point, which then is raised when the car is stationary, if you understand me?

[carlh.1 8]

I managed to get the car into the garage for laser aligning on Friday, it was toeing in by 15mm!! I was way off with thinking it was toeing out.

No wonder it wasn't happy going in a straight line

[DanteICE 72]

Surely it should WANT to go in a straight line with toe in?

[carlh.1 8]

This is what I thought, but the cars gone from dragging it's self all over the road to driving pretty well out of a bend. I can still feel the power switching from side to side with the diff but I don't think it's going to get any better then it is with 290lb torque.

If I'm honest I'd say the drive of the car has been transformed.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Surely it should WANT to go in a straight line with toe in?

 

Toe in and 15mm of toe in are completely different animals!

 

Glad you've sorted it buddy! Have you gone for parallel then?

The idea behind a small amount of toe out is that under hard acceleration the wheels pull parallel. I found a small amount of toe out on my charged car to really help on rough roads under acceleration, it was awful with toe in.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

The feathering on the inside will have been from the toe in, you usually find a bit of extra camber to help on a fast road car. In standard form you usually feather the outside.

[carlh.1 8]

I was told by one of the rally car mechanics to set it at 1.5mm toe in, as I say it felt miles better, but I suppose it will do. Haha,

have you a way of accurately setting toe without laser alignment or is it guess work Allen? I'll try it with 1.5 toe out see how it goes. But as tom says on his turbo car it didn't like it.

Your is still big power on your charged car so shouldn't it have the same characteristics as mine.

[Jon_Bmw 13]

I'd would try 0.5 deg toe out. 1.5 seems a bit too much to me.

[jackherer 543]

I was told by one of the rally car mechanics to set it at 1.5mm toe in

I'd would try 0.5 deg toe out. 1.5 seems a bit too much to me.

 

Degrees and mm aren't the same.

 

edit: this calculator - http://www.furybusa.org.uk/camber.php- says that 1.5mm on a 185/55-15 tyre is equal to 0.15 degrees.

Edited September 14, 2014 by jackherer

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

A lot of it's down to personal preference too remember and certainly not a mechanic!! I for instance wouldn't dream of running toe in.

 

Toms cars a lot different to mine, his runs much heavy springs, big bars etc whereas mines pretty much standard.

 

If you want to play with it yourself the best way is to have the rack centered and the wheels setting parallel. You can then mark it all up as your reference position and then play with the tracking yourself, half a turn each side toe out etc etc. then when you've made a complete balls up of it you can put it all back to parallel

Edited September 14, 2014 by allanallen

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

Ive always found toe out to work wonders on both my FWD machines. I aim for about 20-30mins total on the 205 and 5-10mins total on the megane with my home garage equip!

 

As mentioned is does make it pull around a bit but nothing serious. My megane has 280 lbft and has no problem although it does have fancey pants independant steering axis.

 

Tyres are also a large contributor to white lining performance. Can't imagine Toyo had white lining as a top attribute when developing the R888.

 

I'd also hazard, having had first hand experience of GAZ coilovers, that not allowing the suspension to move until 70-90kg load is applied isn't helping matters. I also can't help but mention the massive difference you have in roll stiffness front the rear with standard bars. It must be a bit of an understeer machine?

[carlh.1 8]

I'm finding it handles better now then it ever has, I haven't been on track with the gti6 turbo engine yet, but I only find it under steers if you come out of a corner giving it to much throttle. When driving it with throttle control it grips and pull like a train.

Even when it had 200hp with the 8v turbo engine, no diff and konis all around it kept up with a lot through the corners on track, it could keep up with the likes of evos, west fields etc. it drove very neutral .

Now these shocks could have changed it, I'm yet to see until I find time to get it on track, you just can't get a car up to the speeds you do on track without driving like a ass.

[Jon_Bmw 13]

 

Degrees and mm aren't the same.

 

edit: this calculator - http://www.furybusa.org.uk/camber.php- says that 1.5mm on a 185/55-15 tyre is equal to 0.15 degrees.

 

Jack,

 

Quite correct.

 

I am a plum, I missed the minus minutes symbol whilst on the phone.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

I'm finding it handles better now then it ever has, I haven't been on track with the gti6 turbo engine yet, but I only find it under steers if you come out of a corner giving it to much throttle. When driving it with throttle control it grips and pull like a train.

Even when it had 200hp with the 8v turbo engine, no diff and konis all around it kept up with a lot through the corners on track, it could keep up with the likes of evos, west fields etc. it drove very neutral .

Now these shocks could have changed it, I'm yet to see until I find time to get it on track, you just can't get a car up to the speeds you do on track without driving like a ass.

 

agreed, my car felt awesome and responsive at the front during road driving then I took it to bedford where it just understeered everywhere. rear bar had snapped

glad you sorted the toe issue anyway