Quintet Insert Fabric

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

I am moving forward slowly, but steadily with this Chinese manufacturer. MOQ is 500 metres and he will match colours from samples (red and the green). I now know his small order premium, which is acceptable. So we must now get his quote, and samples sent to him. This is a good response and I'm encouraged. Onwards and upwards as they say.

regards

Dave

[Edp 67 3 Cars]

Great update Dave, look forward to the next instalment

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

Now the initial forays are past, I decided to hit my (potential) supplier with everything I've got. I sent him a copy of the weaving draft, a warp sett analysis, and the yarn analysis. In theory this is all he should need to manufacture "son of Quintet" -(Quintuplet) - it's gone a bit quiet now, so it will be interesting to see what he makes of it.

Keep the faith

Dave

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

Morning all,

I was on Skype to China this morning talking about new materials I was after getting made. Productive call as the firm concerned does have what I want - it's just taken me a while to get the comms. sorted It's taken me over 2 weeks to get this established ( on and off anyway).

While I'm on-line I see that a contact in Turkey is up and about so I give her a quick bell. Blow me she says first of all, "your samples haven't arrived yet" Oh well- give it few more days and if they don't get there I'll courier some more out. Tickety boo I think. Then she says "Good news" I am negotiating to get your Quintet material made again - funny how one thing leads to another isn't it. Last year this was "Not possible", now it seems a slightly more flexible approach is being taken. I know what's happened, they had an order for a similar material ( now in their range after trialling my Quintet). So I'll wait and see what happens now - should be interesting. The moral of this story (episode) is never give up.

regards

Dave

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

Excellent, if they come up with the goods and the weave has the correct aspect ratio with the same quality as your previous sample then I would buy some. If it is a square weave then I may not...

Edited May 16, 2014 by lightflow

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

 

Nothing personal "lightflow" but I really need to knock this idea on the head. All this talk of aspect ratios etc. is rubbish and as can be seen in the comparative picture above, Quintet offers a good visual representation of the OEM fabric. This took several attempts by the Turkish manufacturer and is fine. Maybe not exact in the dimensions, but there is no way it is square.

Therefore I would ask you to stop this now rather intrusive idea you keep repeating on this forum.

thanks

Dave

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

Dave, it's not rubbish, and it's not intrusive if it is factual and polite. I directly compared your sample you sent me with my seats.

 

The only reason I didn't buy some was because the spacing is not exact in the dimensions.

 

I agree your photograph above looks reasonable, as you say - a good visual representation. All I am saying is that this is so close that with an extra push it could be made an almost exact copy. This new contact was a chance to get the last details spot on.

 

If the spacing is made to match the OEM left to right as it is front to back then I will buy some.

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

you agree - you've got some nerve. Keep off this thread you patronising prick

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

Thanks Dave, I'm just trying to make a good product perfect by providing some considered suggestion and feedback. I'm not sure I quite deserved that.

 

I think that's the danger of the written word. Please accept my apologies if my writing has offended. No patronisation intended.

 

I have a vested interest, I genuinely would like to buy some.

 

I am a potential customer :-)

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

Here is what I am getting at. (Dave I have taken the liberty of annotating your photo)

 

Keeping perspective on the image I have drawn two lines. Over the same lateral width your Quintet sample has 12 "Red Dots" whereas OEM has 10.

 

My point all along is that may be fine in isolation, but I want to replace only my seat fabric and have it match my original, late Phase 2, door cards - so my ideal would be to have the same visual spacing.

 

How can trying to point this out make me a "Patronising Prick"? I am a genuinely interested, potential customer.

 

​

Edited May 17, 2014 by lightflow

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

Hi all,

Thank goodness sanity prevails.Any way, I was happy to hear from the ex Luksteks development engineer who was in charge their when my last batch of Quintet was made. This coupled with a good response from China to my textile design files that were sent last week, gives me renewed confidence that my new material will be made. Not sure yet on the timescales, but I remain optimistic. The price to courier document size jiffy bags to China is a little eye watering mind.

Keep the faith

Dave

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

When did sanity "start prevailing", what changed since my previous post? You haven't acknowledged the difference in the weave spacing, that I pointed out in your photograph.

 

Are you able to confirm to the forum that your design specification to the new contact(s) is the same as it has always been as per your sample photo? It would be good to have an acknowledgment that you will be continuing with the original spec, then everyone (including myself) knows what to expect.

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

Hi all,

current progress is slightly in the doldrums. I have had to get up to speed with sending samples to China. My first couple of attempts were by Royal Mail - bad decision - they just don't get there. I have been talking with my Chinese contacts and now know what information is required (to accompany the packet). i.e. company import registration No., Address written in Chinese etc. , etc. I think I've got it right now and the nice idea of sending multiple samples to one firm, and them offering to send the others on sounds good - it saves me money 'cos it's £30 a pop for couriered services to China. Still we'll see if that actually works within due course. Current estimates are June 9th for delivery - day after my birthday - I'm creeping towards getting old and creaky - no change there then. I'm quietly optimistic.

I'll post on here when anything significant occurs. Until then we just have to wait.

regards

Dave

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

I'll take that as a 'No' you are not going to confirm anything. Instead you are going to inform us about the nuances of the Chinese postal system....

 

You have a trim business Dave; presumably you are seeking to maximise your return from your efforts? Successful businesses conduct themselves by seeking to engage in a positive way with their customers.

 

The more accurately you specify this fabric the more likely it is to be sold for profit; you know that.

 

Why on earth wouldn't you wish to engage in a constructive conversation and make some appropriate modifications? This is not about your ego it should be about a chance to deliver something to the market which is as good as it can be.

 

You have a scientific and engineering background - please do that profession (and this forum) the honour of engaging in positive peer review.

 

I have said before to you - I think it is fantastic that you are going to such lengths to try and create this fabric. However, at the moment, it is an inaccurate replica. With some small changes and some humility, it could be so much better and lead to bigger and quicker sales - why wouldn't you want that?

[Wes 86 1 Cars]

lightflow, i think you are getting a little bit too anal about the spacing. the picture above was taken by me after i had my seats recovered with the material dave sent me. i am very happy with the material. i to have the later style door cards and if anyone can notice the difference in spacing of the dots then i would think they were a little weird.

 

i don't know if you have seen the pics of my seats but i think its a very good match to the original. obviously if you think you can do better then go ahead, instead of telling a guy how to do it when he is doing a very good job of finding new material. it probably never will be an exact match unless you were stood face to face with the manufacturer in china, which lets face it is not going to happen.

 

door card:

 

seats:

 

i'm pretty sure that if this material was fitted to standard 205 seats most people would not notice the difference to the original.

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

Yes indeed Wes, I agree with you I am getting very precise about the spacing. Weird being able to see a difference? yes possibly. Obsessing on detail - certainly, but I'm fine with that.

 

We can each look at what is on offer and make our choices. I had a sample from Dave, and whilst there were several things different in the fabric it was good enough in all but one respect (for me anyway) and that was the spacing.

 

I fully understand that it is extremely unlikely to be able to find a manufacturer today who would make the fabric to OEM spec and to do so in a profitable way (for Dave) in small volumes at the price point we might be willing to pay.

 

I don't believe however that changing the relative spacing should incur a big cost, perhaps I am wrong in this respect, but Dave has never countered my suggestion with a clear or particularly courteous explanation.

 

So as it stands today I wouldn't buy some. I do want to be able to buy some. I am not trying to do this myself, I don't wish to. I have never been unpleasantly critical, I have just suggested it could be made a more precise copy whilst there was a window of opportunity that's all.

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

.....also, given a higher density of red 'dots' per square metre it also shifts the perceived colour when viewed from a distance. It is lighter because the red to black ratio is not the same. Just saying....

 

The visual stuff matters to me. It's what I do. It may not matter to others and that's fine of course. That's the beauty of a free market.

 

As good 205's diminish, correctness may become ever more important to value? If the name of the game is fun and not pure originality it's a totally different story.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I assumed that since this was posted in a technical forum rather than a For Sale or Group Buy section, that open debate was allowed. I also would assume (but hey, what do I know, I'm not a businessman!) that somebody starting up a new enterprise would welcome product feedback, comments and suggestions and use that as a valuable source to make product improvements. But this topic has proven me wrong on both counts, as seemingly if you do dare to provide constructive criticism you first get labelled a "patronising prick" by the trader, then risk getting shot down in flames by other happy customers. I guess the only reason for the regular updates is to serve as a marketing tool. That's the logical conclusion if healthy and friendly debate is not allowed.

 

At this point in time I consider myself a future potential customer of a full set of leather and Quintet/Quartet/"The dotty ones" covers. I have done since this venture first started. So I am going to put my oar in whether anybody likes it or not.....

 

I am not one of these owners who obsess about OE detailing, and as such, I would probably be happy to have a close approximation of the original material, if a close approximation is the best we can ever hope for. But I'm only one person, and my attitude to this product only represents a fraction of the potential market. Quite clearly there are potential customers out there who want as close to the OE material as is possible (ideally an exact replica). Given the trend towards people restoring 205s back to factory standard and the sharp increase in For Sale prices of such cars, I think this target customer base will be even more critical. Note that I'm not saying this for Dave's benefit as I'm sure he has done the market research and understands his customer base, I'm saying it to avoid unnecessary debate with other members.

 

Now, with that said, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Wes. From the photos, I can spot the difference a mile off, and if that makes me a weirdo, then that's a label I can live with. I'm not saying this to be overtly critical, and I'm not saying that it's not satisfactory for those of us who don't want the perfect replica. I'm saying it because it is fact. To be specific, it looks too red. If I try to explain why it looks too red, I'm only going to be criticised for not using the correct terminology, so I won't bother. Nevertheless, I have every faith that Dave already knows why it looks too red and doesn't need me to state the obvious.

 

Dave, it's not my intention to belittle your efforts thus far. And I'm pretty sure Lightflow isn't either. We all know you have worked your arse off to get this far, and it's commendable. For god's sake don't f*** things up now by tarnishing your reputation on here through petty insults and a seemingly egotistic reluctance to listen to feedback (which is how it comes across). Believe me, this DOES matter!

 

If you want to take the hump over my comments, that's fine and it's your prerogative to do so. If you want to ignore me, that's fine also. But if you do one thing, please make it a sensible and direct reply to Lightflow's query, as he's not the only one wondering, and it would be good to get clarity on the matter.

[Slo 283 1 Cars]

Well said poo

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

I'm not certain about what requires clarification. Analysis of the OEM fabric was lengthy and the reproduction of a replica fabric was not cheap.

I have endeavoured to seek "marketing" opinions at most stages during this live project. Just check the history of my posts.

 

The French auto textile firm Muguet have gone down the same route as Luksteks, my manufacturer, in as much as the coloured floats provided by the plastic backed felt strips - both the red and the black, have to be emulated by using yarns. This in itself provides a mechanical problem with the fabric. The strength of the original being provided by these single strip plastic backed felts, in both the warp and the weft.

Once the number of floats per inch exceeds a certain value (typically 100 ends per float - known as the sett) then a very real worry is that the surface of the fabric is highly likely to snag. Something that isn't highly desirable in a car seat insert. (Note - tell me if this is getting too technical won't you). The sett of my fabric is 96 ends. Muguet have taken a different approach and gone for a thicker single yarn called Chenille - the hairy caterpillar. using 2 ends per float. I trust this clarifies this seemingly impossible problem for you.

As for colours - nobody knows what the original was like anyway as it has got lost in the dust of time. So that's a bit subjective.

I don't bore you all with the ins and outs of this every time I post as these decisions are between me and my manufacturer and not subject to public debate all the time, or is that just another cunning marketing strategy. Bizarrely, my life as a physicist led me down some highly analytical routes including telemetry, aerodynamics, rocket engine technology etc., etc. and rest assured I do know what rocket science is

 

Marketing tool - of course it is, but it is also important to me that my best efforts are directed towards "maintaining the marque" - an ethos wholly embraced by the French 205 GTi club, for instance. Whether or not you like my fabrics and how I sew them up is up you; but what did touch a nerve with me, and still does, is the fact that someone who doesn't have the courtesy to get up to speed with my posts before commenting on this very public forum can just come in like a wrecking ball. This guy Lightflow is a pro photographer and yes he sees the world differently to everyone else - the closest analogy I can give is the photographic analysis unit of the RAF during WW11. His view is a singular one and peculiar to him I feel.

 

One of the weaknesses of this forum is, as I've pointed out before is that it's a non entity. By that I mean that it carries no clout in the singular closed world of specialist car owners. It's a loose association of people with a common interest. The major decisions in the 205 GTi world are being made by the French club's renovation and restoration team. Who must approve all new products used by it's members when maintaining their vehicles. You are cast beyond the pale if you choose not to.

As in all these things, it's up to you - n'est-ce-pas !

regards

Dave

 

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

Dave thanks this reply - it is genuinely much appreciated and now getting us on to the sort of footing I was originally hoping for

 

I would like to expand on a few points. (I think this is adding value)

 

You say that you have had a "nerve touched" because "...someone who doesn't have the courtesy to get up to speed with my posts before commenting on this very public forum can just come in like a wrecking ball". That is gross presumption on your part. For what it's worth, I carefully read almost every post on this thread and your website before I ever engaged in dialogue with you. When I did start a dialogue you decided to be curt and dismissive, whereas for my part I only had a genuine interest and polite query.

 

No, the explanation is not getting too technical

 

I think you chose a perfect description for the construction of the Quintet fabric - that is using the "coloured floats" to emulate the plastic warps and wefts (which provided the structural rigidity and tonality in the OEM quartet). Those of course would be tricky to do today (but then again the Chinese "reproduction" industry can turn their hand to just about anything so you just never know). The floats are where the problem for me lies. Their spacing across the weft axis is too dense.

 

Can I clarify some points in your description?

 

You say the sett of your Quintet is 96 ends per inch (epi). You then talk about ends per float - "typically 100 ends per float - known as the sett" - which isn't correct is it? That would make the float (red warp emulation) just over an inch in length across the weft axis. Which it isn't of course.

 

You say that when the number of floats exceed a certain value then the material is more likely to snag. From my earlier annotated reference photo, the OEM fabric shows 10 floats across the same weft run as the 12 in Quintet. The OEM has a lower number of floats per inch - according to your explanation (if I read it properly) that would make it less prone to snagging. Surely then the Quintet float spacing should be increased to match OEM spacing to make it less prone to snagging?

 

Now on to the colour perception:

 

It is this very same increase number of "floats per inch" which is most likely causing the perceived lightening or "red shift". As Steve points out - he knows why this is occurring too. I am going to guess that you have a pretty good match for the absolute dye colour of "red" in your yarn. If that is the case, then any increase in float density will cause a perceived colour shift.

 

I have knocked something up on my etch-a-sketch to illustrate:

 

 

Both of these samples have only two colours in them. Pure Black and Pure Red. In RGB terms (0x00,0x00,0x00) and (0xFF,0x00,0x00) respectively. Only the density and spacing of the dots (floats) is modified. The second at 37% shows a perceived shift which is brighter and more "red". Only the density is changed with respect to the black. This is why the Qunitet looks brighter in Wes's photos above - and is alluded to by Steve. At the Yarn colour level it is not "more red" there is just more red per square inch.

 

Do I see the world differently? If I do then that makes me happy and "weird". What I do look for is precision, so your reference to the RAF Photographic Interpretation units may not be too far from the mark

 

Is my view singular and peculiar? Hmmmm.... I think it feels factually correct (to me at least) that's all I can say...

Edited June 1, 2014 by lightflow

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

...and I meant to add and to put it on record, as Steve mentioned... : There is and never has been any intention on my part to belittle anything you have done to date, quite the contrary in fact. If I had no respect for what you have achieved to date I would have stated that in no uncertain terms, or just not bothered.

Edited June 1, 2014 by lightflow

[GLPoomobile 958]

Dave, thanks for the detailed reply.

 

I'm not certain about what requires clarification.

 

For me, the clarification relates to Lightflows original question some posts back, where he asked if the spacing/weave might be modified on the next supply of material. His enquiry was specific, whereas for me it's rather more simply, can a material be sourced/created that is even closer to the original, and is this something you are still working on? You've answered using technical information, and I thank you for that. And it sounds like there are technical limitations to this. What would have sufficed for me, as a simple layman (common or garden mong) would be a simple "Yes, improvements are being worked on with the suppliers and we should be able to get even closer to the original material", or "Improvements should be possible, but I need to find the right supplier for the job", or "it's technically impossible to make a perfect replica", or something along those lines. And you'll have to forgive me if you've alluded to this in previous posts - I do follow all your updates but I have a memory like a sieve.

 

 

(Note - tell me if this is getting too technical won't you).

 

Yep, too technical for me But there's no harm in going in to the nitty gritty if it helps the discussion.

 

but what did touch a nerve with me, and still does, is the fact that someone who doesn't have the courtesy to get up to speed with my posts before commenting on this very public forum can just come in like a wrecking ball.

 

This is exactly why I felt I had to comment so frankly above. You are of course free to conduct yourself as you see fit, but do you feel you can afford to alienate customers if you feel that they are touching a nerve? It's the nature of the beast that often as a trader of any sort, you just have to suck it up sometimes, and deal with inane/stupid enquiries with a fake smile and a forced pleasant attitude (not that the inane/stupid part applies to Lightflow).

 

Anyway, keep the updates coming please. I'll let Lightflow crack on with his technical interrogation since he seems to be able to talk the talk

Edited June 2, 2014 by GLPoomobile

[dch1950 37 1 Cars]

he can't though - that's exactly his problem. My threads are always part marketing and mostly information on the current state/position.

I don't accept that an exact replica can ever be produced and thus a continuing debate on the design is irrelevant. The material produced by the French club suffers exactly the same limitations as my own. As I pointed out to you. But clearly there wasn't a club wide debate on the infinite variations in design that may or may not have been possible. It was designed, woven and that was that.The Muguet material is approved by the French resto team though despite it's limitations - so they have bitten the bullet , so to speak and accept that Quartet is now defunct.

 

My customer base is pretty huge at the moment thanks, and just because one or two people on this forum throw a hissy fit doesn't affect me in any way. They like you aren't customers and I doubt they ever will be. But that's their choice. Weaving and textile production is highly complicated and in general most people can't get to grips with it. This isn't a debate - I'll let you know how things progress but at the end of the day - if you don't like the material you can always go and do the other thing can't you. e.g. buy the French version and pay vast amounts of cash to get a custom job done - I wish you luck.

best wishes

Dave

[lightflow 59 1 Cars]

I didn't know I had a problem Dave in terms of "...that's exactly his problem." Can you explain where I am going wrong in my lack of understanding?

 

I also don't have any problem in at least attempting to understand this subject. I am really interested to learn (but not so much that I might make an attempt at production myself - I don't have the time/interest/etc..) What I do have a problem trying to interpret is a consistent lack of explanation as to why the spacing cannot be corrected. You may not want to correct the spacing - too costly, too much effort and so on, but I thought from my limited knowledge that it should be within the realms of possibility and moderate cost?

 

Of course an exact replica can be produced (just not within the economic constraints and motivation of this proposition). Yes I know this is not a debate and I never expected that an exact replica would be produced this started as a simple and honest question from a potential customer.

 

So thanks for bouncing this around it's been interesting.

 

Out of interest - does the French club material suffer the same incorrect spacing of the floats along the weft? Is that the same limitation you refer to (or is it the same lack of plastic felts strips)?

 

p.s. (I wouldn't buy - it is made of "chenilles velues" - what were they thinking? (joke )