Rose Joint Track Rod End/ Track Suspension Thread

[rallyeash 155]

Hi guys,

I'm wanting to help cure some some bump steer and get my suspension working with a better geometry. I would like in an ideal world to send my car to Colin satchell and have a complete front suspension setup but that's a big chunk of money which I can't justify spending while trying to save for a house deposit plus I really enjoy doing things and learning about it. It's pretty much how most of my car has been built by learning as I go.

 

I've hit the limit to what's bolt on suspension wise to my car,

23mm tb's, 24 rear arb, 309 GTI front gear, coilovers, tran x diff etc. You get the idea.

 

I'd like to try correct some of the working angles that I can see creates my 205 a bit of a mare on camber changing roads but is no problem out on circuit. Some of this is because of my engine I appreciate but there's room for improvement for sure.

 

I want to start with the steering rack then maybe move on from there in time.

 

I really like what Allenallen has done to help improve it but from what I can gather the rose joint track rod ends are expensive and hard to get the length required to meet the rack and now he no longer makes them. (I'm not trying to copy his stuff and then start selling either)

 

I'm still learning but I've been browsing through sites and see one way is a short rose joint which is far cheaper and then a barrel nut then a male male stud thread to fit the female end of the rack. I don't really like this setup as it leaves several weak/connection points but I've been thinking...

 

This gives a couple of options, either try use another make/model outer section of the steering rack/track rod for example a 306 as from memory the front track is 40mm wider? These combined with a rose joint and a lowered steering angle could work well. Or there's the option of just making the outer section/tubes to bring the rack out further then allowing a shorter Rose joint to work. I believe Colin does the latter.... This also allows to cut any thread required and allow a larger rose joint if required.

 

At work we have a machining company moving in next door and after chatting for a while he's made pistons etc and does all sorts of machining and is happy to show me how to use anything I may require. Or I just give him what I require making....

 

Any help appreciated.

Ash

[rallyeash 155]

These are some made for a 306

[rallyeash 155]

Info I've found on 306 steering racks...

The VTS rack has 277mm rods/bars

 

The Gti6 rack has 292mm rods/bars

 

And the S16 rack has 260mm rods/bars.

Edited January 26, 2014 by rallyeash

[rallyeash 155]

Can't seem to get confirmation of the 306 V 205 inner track rod length as factors list different sizes. However I just understand that they are longer.

My current thoughts are to run 306 inner track rod ends and a pair of these Fluro PTFE rose joints.

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/suspension-steering/rod-ends/metric-rod-ends

 

The thread section is 38mm and a standard 205 TRE is 60mm as I have one at hand to measure.

If the 306 inner track rods add 25mm per side which I can imagine they do could be onto a winner.

Then it's just sorting out mounting the rod end onto the hub.

[clen666 2]

Where are the pictured items from?

[rallyeash 155]

Found them on Google while searching. Were fitted to a 306. Common problem seems to be getting the rod end with enough thread. Ie 60mm. The common is 40mm like on the Merlin link and the idea of running 306 inner track rod ends may overcome the shortfall.

 

Could be in theory fairly straight forward conversion to carry out.

[rallyeash 155]

Well I've ordered a pair of Fluro PTFE M14 x 1.5 rod ends and a pair of half nuts from Merlin's plus a pair of 306 lemforder inner track rods so we'll see what happens when they arrive!

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Yep you've got the idea ash, either longer track rods or modify the originals. Or you could cut the arms shorter and use the extended rose joints that Compbrake sell, IMO they're s*it though.

What you need to be very careful about is the joints running out if travel during suspension movement. You need to take your springs out and run the suspension through it's motions, checking at the extremes of it's travel the rose joint isnt binding up and potentially bending or braking.

Standard TREs have the joint set at at angle remember

[rallyeash 155]

Ok thanks, btw I've just pm'd you.

 

I'll check through its travel to make sure there's no problem there - thanks

 

My thoughts were if the 306 inner is a little too long I can probably afford to chop 10mm off each side but i'll do some measurements when they arrive this week.

[welshpug 1,656]

you can't just chop excess length off the 306 track rods, you'll just run out of thread due to the location of the spanner flats.

 

I think you need to double check those track rod lengths, there's no reason for a gti6 track rod to be 30mm longer than an S16, where they are the same track width, same track rod ends, same track rod...

 

the 306 based vans, use the same track rods as the zx/xsara.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

There's a fair bit of thread in track rods though, 10mm wouldn't be a problem sure.

Needs to be a nice straight cut though

[welshpug 1,656]

indeed there is, but I found that it wasn't enough to cut down and use on a 205 with 309 wishbones, the track rod ends bottomed out against the spanner flat section.

 

unless the spanner flats are in a different position on 306 rods, mine is a ZX rack..

[Mad Scientist 106]

I was talking to Al about this last week, and also had the idea of 306 track rods to overcome the short shank length of standard rj's. Be interested to see if it works before I start experimenting!

 

The solution above in the picture is one I have seen elsewhere. I wonder how strong those lengthened pins are though??

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I'm really not a fan of the lengthened pins, hence why all the ones we do are bored and sleeved into the hub with a large face up against the hub, then a 24t washers on top to get maximum clamping force and load spreading.

[rallyeash 155]

Allan is going to make my adapters to fit the hubs and won't be a taper jobbie like the above pic. I initially thought could be a good way for a direct fit to the hub but I can see strength is a worry.

 

The 306 rods may not even need trimming. I'll see what the score is when I get it all lined up.

[welshpug 1,656]

1393 - 1462 is the track width difference 1.9-306 as far as I can see.

[Anthony 1,002]

The 306 rods may not even need trimming. I'll see what the score is when I get it all lined up.

For what it's worth, uncut Xsara TR's and standard TRE's wound all the way in give massive amounts of toe-in on a 205 with 309 wishbones - they're way too long.

 

I don't know how they compare to 306 TR's but I would hazard a guess that they're not too dissimilar length wise.

[rallyeash 155]

1393 - 1462 is the track width difference 1.9-306 as far as I can see.

is that the length of the steering rack or the actual axle width?

 

I know when I changed to 309 wishbones I had to wind the TRE's out a fair few turns to make the wheels straight, I guess 205/309 runs the same rack but the TRE's are just wound out a bit more.

 

makes sense in my head that on a 309 and 309 gear on a 205 if the TRE's are wound out further than on a 205 1.9 then there *should* be more room to fit uncut 306 rods as they will take up some of the thread wound out to 309 width.

Edited January 27, 2014 by rallyeash

[welshpug 1,656]

that's track width, which is all added in the track rods, given its the same hub and wheel offset, same steering rack body, same track rod ends, its not a definite given that the track rods will be 35mm longer each side, but it wont be far off.

[rallyeash 155]

great, just looked under my car and the TRE's appear to be out around 30mm each side from being bottomed out so we *could* be cooking on gas!

[Mad Scientist 106]

Nice one Ash. This is going to save me a lot of time and effort!

 

Al: please make two sets of whatever Ash orders!

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

You still need to have a measure Pete! Ash is on shorter dampers and running a fair whack lower than you I'd imagine.

[rallyeash 155]

306 rods should be here tomorrow and joints Wednesday. Think it'll be easier to pull my rack off and fit it all on the bench rather than trying to get the 205 rods off.

I've owned my car 8 years nearly now and the inner track rods have never been replaced so may require some heat!

[welshpug 1,656]

Naah, just a set of stilsons, they spin out easily once crackrd off as they sit under a boot.

[Mad Scientist 106]

I was only joking Al!

 

I just stripped a manual rack for my quaife and the track rods came off easily with mole grips Ash, as WP says.