What Have You Done To Your 205 Today?

[Leslie green 110]

Pulled the gti out of the shed , its still on the jig I left it on 2 years ago , a birds nest was in the inner wing , least someone was getting some use out of it lol 

[Gohn 68]

took off the failed Peugeot diesel filter

installed a used identical spare one

it 'developed' the same issue not 5 mins later

(the diaphrams collapse, mixing 1 part air to 1 part diesel into my fuel feed line)

ripped it out

visited local wreckers, made a beeline for the diesel SUV section

fixed my beedy eyeball on a diesel filter in a stripped out '96 Toyota Hilux 2.8D

whipped it out, fabricated a bracket to locate it in the Dturbo engine bay

installed, bled the system and away goes the XUD

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

My brake hoses fit, 1.9 handbrake cables with a washer added fit!

 

Inner arch required a bit cutting out for clearance

 

But otherwise so far so good with the C4 rear caliper conversion.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Tell me more Tom - why C4 calipers? Just better availability? More pad/disc area? Piston ratio different? Still use conventional handbrake cables obviously.

 

ie. does it help me handbrake things easier  ?

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2022 at 2:13 PM, brumster said:

Tell me more Tom - why C4 calipers? Just better availability? More pad/disc area? Piston ratio different? Still use conventional handbrake cables obviously.

 

ie. does it help me handbrake things easier  ?

To try and make the hydraulic handbrake work properly is the aim. Road rallying is a bit of an odd one in that we often run a gravel tyre which when hot are very sticky. On a dry night you just can’t get the bloody things to break loose to skid the rear of the car round, sometimes on tight triangles you are knackered without. 
When I built this car I left it on drums as they seem more grabby as standard. My green road car will handbrake turn lovely! But the rally car wouldn’t entertain it, even with a hydraulic cylinder added inside the car. 

Allan also had the same issues with the standard 1900 calipers when he was road rallying and no matter what he tried he couldn’t get to the bottom of it either on the standard calipers.

The other thing that lead me

here is that even with my in car bias valve fully open I can’t lock the drum

rears with the foot pedal either. My conclusion that the rear drums just aren’t powerful enough when up against a big sticky rally tyre.
Road rally regs mean I’ve got to have a facility for cables, and I’m not allowed an upright lever like I guess you have got.

As an aside I think PTS also struggled with this back in the day as they used an AP 2 pot on the rear, I’m assuming for similar reasons.

You can buy a similar modern 2 pot AP and they even do a very trick looking mech handbrake linkage for it but at £600 EACH the Yorkshire war cry ARRRR MUUUUUCCCHHHH! applies so as usual had a look to see what I could come up with.

So off to eBay etc I went and spent literally hours looking through at various different rear calipers at everything from a BMW MINI to a Merc ML. The late Citroen Peugeot caliper are used on loads of stuff and the same thing also

on lots of VAG stuff. But best of all Calvin donated a pair off Sarah’s scrap C4 with the intention of mocking up with, but to be honest with a clean and check they are plenty good enough to try out in anger so are now on the car and im

just finishing off the odds and ends so I can try them.

Piston size is 36mm so only 6mm bigger, but in area terms works out at something like 40% bigger than the 1.9 calipers. So i’m yet to test, but I’m hoping these will do the trick nicely. And so far it’s cost me the price of having the brackets laser cut and the cheapest set of pads I could find just to test the theory. They do this shape pad in 1144 so I’ll probably get some of those if im happy with it.

 

EDIT- piston size is actually 38mm not 36mm. Equates to approx. 50% bigger piston area than the standard 205 1.9 rear caliper with its 30mm piston.

 

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Very interesting; I know exactly where you're coming from. I've managed to get the 1.9 discs working OK as you know, but as you rightly say I can 'cheat' a little bit by having a vertical handbrake. It works, but it's not *great* and on some occassions I've had similar experiences to you where, on hot sticky tarmac tyres towards the middle of a stage, they don't want to play ball. I end up doing a technique where I pressure up on the foot pedal, yank the handbrake hard to hold that pressure on the rear, then lift off the pedal to try and hold some pressure in the rear circuit but it's not nice as the feel at the pedal afterwards feels a bit 'wonky'... I'm not sure what's going on with the line pressures at the pedal box when you do this.

 

 On the current 're-fettle' of the car I'm going down a MC size on the handbrake to see if that improves things a little. I was aware of the AP 2-pots but I kind of like retaining a cable handbrake as well. So your approach sounds very interesting; I'd be interested in knowing more once you get it working, which I'm sure you will

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Probably not what you want to hear, but I went down to the smallest cyl they do on the handbrake (0.500") and all that happened was the lever effort got less and the travel more but it still wouldn't lock the rears reliably.

I've also tried a quick stamp on the footbrake whilst then pulling the bar which helped a bit but not always enough, sometimes this would seem to lock pressure in until you press the foot pedal again. As you will well know its also a lot to be doing all at once, when really you just want the handbrake to do what it should, so you can concentrate on steering/gears/waving to spectators etc.

Best work around was put the outside rear wheel on the opposite grass verge and then fling the c*nt round with as much assistance as the handbrake can offer, which has more success but is also a little too much s*it or bust really.

[petert 586]

I've just gone to a 7/8" master cylinder on the rear. It's so much better.

Edited January 26, 2022 by petert

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

1 hour ago, Tom Fenton said:

Probably not what you want to hear, but I went down to the smallest cyl they do on the handbrake (0.500") and all that happened was the lever effort got less and the travel more but it still wouldn't lock the rears reliably.

I've also tried a quick stamp on the footbrake whilst then pulling the bar which helped a bit but not always enough, sometimes this would seem to lock pressure in until you press the foot pedal again. As you will well know its also a lot to be doing all at once, when really you just want the handbrake to do what it should, so you can concentrate on steering/gears/waving to spectators etc.

Best work around was put the outside rear wheel on the opposite grass verge and then fling the c*nt round with as much assistance as the handbrake can offer, which has more success but is also a little too much s*it or bust really.

AP Racing do a thing called a "shuttle valve" which takes two inputs (so a pedalbox M/C and a separate handbrake M/C) and the output is the highest of the two inputs, basically. I have always been curious to understand if this would make things any better. I totally agree with what you say, I've found the same - I know when applying the handbrake M/C there is a short distance before the cylinder cuts off the input feed hole, after which all pressure should go out the intended port, but on my cheapo Girling-style handbrake M/C I can notice pressure back up to the foot pedal for quite some time.

 

I'm moving to a proper AP Racing M/C on the handbrake which I have a feeling will close off the input port much sooner in actuation and will mean, in the initial application phase, more of the pressure goes to the callipers rather than back down to the pedal box. Just a case of suck it and see really, see if it improves. Next step after that was the alternative callipers on the rear, hence my interest.

 

Good stuff, let's keep each other posted then, will be a few months yet before mine is ready - lots more things to do

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Regarding alternative calipers; Citroen BX front calipers? They have  the handbrake on the front wheel.... Not sure if the handbrake part is also capable of stopping the car. 

[SRDT 175]

It should be, Citroën put it in front in case of total hydraulic failure.

Alpine was using the vented ones from the BX 16v on the rear of the V6 GT and V6 Turbo so at least it can work as a normal rear caliper.

 

Speaking of front Citroën calipers on the rear let's not forger the Visa two pot alloy calipers that Peugeot Talbot Sport used in Gr.A racing.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

All well and good but try actually finding any of these you mention. Just not about any more.

[stef205 92 1 Cars]

These lock alright 

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Jesus, 4 pots on the back!? I bet they do! 

[petert 586]

6 hours ago, stef205 said:

These lock alright 

 

A classic case of perception and reality. Totally over braked on the rear.

[stef205 92 1 Cars]

33 minutes ago, petert said:

A classic case of perception and reality. Totally over braked on the rear.

oh no really 

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

On 1/22/2022 at 10:07 PM, Tom Fenton said:

My brake hoses fit, 1.9 handbrake cables with a washer added fit!

 

Inner arch required a bit cutting out for clearance

 

But otherwise so far so good with the C4 rear caliper conversion.

Well to anyone following. They are on bled and briefly tested. Initial signs are promising. New discs and pads so by no means bedded in yet. With the bias valve fully open a good stamp on the pedal now will lock the rears, something it would never do before. So I will gradually tune the rear bias down to stop the locking which should be easy enough. 
The handbrake so far isn’t what it needs to be, perhaps needs bleeding some more but I also think the 0.500” cylinder I previously fitted to try isn’t the ticket any more. So I’ll refit the 0.625” and then try it again. The cables are on but no adjusted up, I had considered adjusting them up as a trial to see how keen the calipers are just using the mechanism. Certainly my wife’s MINI Cooper S which I may have done (won) a few scatters in, will handbrake round a treat on totally standard and a bit tired looking discs and cable actuated calipers.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Well in case anyone is still interested

 

Brake conversion is complete and was tried in anger on a rally on Saturday night/Sunday morning. 14th overall and 1st in class as well.

 

Its a massive success to be honest. With the bias valve right the way out, it will just about lock the rears only if you stamp on the foot pedal like an elephant. In normal use fine.

 

With the 0.625" handbrake cylinder fitted the handbrake is everything I'd always wanted it to be. I now need to recalibrate how hard I pull it, as after 3 years of trying to wrench the lever off its mountings every time in an effort to lock the rear wheels, I now am pulling just as hard but don't need to, leading to a couple of times handbraking a bit further round than I really intended.

 

All this with the £8 cheapest of the cheap pads I bought just to mock up with, but to be honest it seems they are in fact perfectly adequate and so rather than replacing with c£90 Mintex 1144, I may instead carry on using a standard pad, albeit a better quality standard material e.g. a Ferodo/Mintex etc.

[Ron_Jaegers 10]

Just here to add that I am definitely interested in the above Tom!

 

Sounds like a nice upgrade path for me as well.

[boldy205 75]

Finally, after 4 years, got the car running again! 

Just got a few more hours work to service/tidy up then its off for MOT and it's another one out on the road!

[Ashman 8]

Fitted up some Grp A style wishbones and this lovely distributor blanking plate courtesy of Jeff Skitt.

[Gohn 68]

new bronze gearstick bushes (BakerBM) arrived today

after getting the various plastic bits out of the way for access

the condition of the gearstick and bushes/boots was all pretty good considering, just one of the washers had disintegrated

doesn't look like been touched from factory and it'd had a pretty good track flogging under one of the previous owners

none of that for me but the new bushes give it a snug fit, (with the thicker bronze sleeves didn't seem to need any washers either side)

two simple cheap bits but its a big improvement and haven't even fitted the new gearlinks or the pivot bushes yet

 

 

 

 

[chris 417 mi 34 2 Cars]

Washed it taxed it and took it to a car meet 

[chris 417 mi 34 2 Cars]

Also played car Tetris getting it out and back in again 

[boldy205 75]

Finally got it off of axle stands (nearly 5 years!) It passed uts MOT and is now ready for Keevil track day on Friday!!!!