Which Direction? Itbs Or Supercharging

[allye 530 3 Cars]

 

 

thing is, a sc low boost 309 would not come past yours.

 

Not for long!

[Spiky 37]

allye what power is yours now then, for it not to be passed by a sc'd 309, it' surely has to be 230+

 

and hopefully ask will back me up,

 

my sc'd 205 will out run his 205 purely becuase i running around 270-280, but a fat load more torque, in a straight line

 

not trying do win a willy waving contest, thats just my genuine thoughts

 

however, i would say, he has spent far more than me, to get less power,

 

but

 

MUCH better noise

Edited December 17, 2013 by Spiky

[rallyeash 155]

I'm sure it would come with enough straight, I struggle to actually get past my mates 205 with 200hp at a circuit

[allye 530 3 Cars]

What WP is getting at a LB SC setup will come past my standard 195bhp D8 V6.

 

I have in my possession a phase 2 Clio V6 engine, 255BHP standard, mine will be run on DTA with a complete tubular exhaust (including manifolds) and no cats so will be more, also 230ft/lb +

 

But I'm not int he country till March! So will be done in the summer.

[Spiky 37]

he said "wont", where as i disagree, and assure you, a sc'd 309 will pass your 195 V6

[allye 530 3 Cars]

so he did! haha. I'm tired alright, it's 11pm here.

 

The D8 was very quick too, entirely new level to the 6.

Edited December 17, 2013 by allye

[Spiky 37]

haha

 

you moved over in aussie land now then?

[dcc 855]

The main difference between all of these is the torque of the V6 is near enough instant. the torque of the Sc is progressive with revs, as is its power.

 

as I am sure you all know BHP is just a way of comparing cocks.

 

Just think I should add

 

George and I (in a very homebrew v6) along side Sarty and Dan (and nico) - the v6 had the grunt, and permitting the road was clear it would have pulled on sarty.

 

Lets not forget Sarty had 196ftlb, 240bhp. the v6 had 195 ftlb and 196bhp. The difference? Where the engine develops the power.

 

So Spiky, i am sorry I will have to disagree with you, and assure you a SC 309 will not 'pass' a v6, especially as a v6 pulls all the way to the limiter, as we found (156mph).

 

-

Cheeky Edit, but I've just found this - Obviously that's as close to a guesstimate as you'll get with it being done via a rolling road, but its pretty crazy how it makes the power from so low down!

 

Edited December 17, 2013 by dcc

[Spiky 37]

fair comment

[welshpug 1,657]

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Crack heads, heres my Low boost supercharged 205 driving past a v6........ On paper

[Gman 29]

Fair enough, but can we leave the V6 out of it as it's not an option for me as I like to go around corners too! :lol

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Fair enough, but can we leave the V6 out of it as it's not an option for me as I like to go around corners too! :lol

Oh god, you didn't just say that......... Pitchforks!!!

[Spiky 37]

Fair enough, but can we leave the V6 out of it as it's not an option for me as I like to go around corners too! :lol

 

 

 

lol at that.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

I'll take you out in the V6 Gman

[stef205 92 1 Cars]

I'll take you out in the V6 Gman

yeah take a spare clutch cable with you mind

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Ahaha! There will be zero clutch cables present in my car. I assure you of that.

[Anthony 1,003]

My own 2p...

 

If your primary aim is to be quicker on track, then a plate diff, better tyres and especially some tuition will be much more effective than engine mods. You won't have any more power, but you'll be coming off the corners so much quicker that you'll be quicker down the straights.

 

Judging from the examples I've driven, a supercharged GTi-6 205 is very quick in a straight line and unquestionably quicker than an ITB'd one on standard cams (or cams mild enough to fit without piston mods). The Rotrex kits are very expensive though and the Eaton based ones are homebrews.

 

ITB's add much to the enjoyment that can't really be measured on paper though - response, noise, and delivery are all wonderful (setup and map permitting of course). For the road I would go down that route every time out of the two.

[Gman 29]

Come on Anthony, don't be so boring!

 

I have sticky tires and will be fitting a quaiffe once I can find one for the right price, so I'm really trying to figure what will be right for me, and still be within my budget. I must say that tuition is a really important factor though, as my passenger highlighted a few simple things that made me at least 2 secs a lap quicker.

 

The car will be used predominately on road though, so I need to consider both track and road usage.

 

I do like the thought of going SC (Rotrex), mainly for the sheer balls out speed. However, I have a feeling it will be a bit too much for the road, especially as they're not the most planted of cars in the first place. What is interesting to know is how much quicker a cammed and ITB (around 210bhp one would hope) engined 205 would feel than a standard 205 gti6. I completely get the noise, which is probably the driving factor of the ITB option, but as Alistair has suggested, if ITB'd cars don't feel substantially quicker, spending 2000-2500 on a nice noise will be somewhat hard to justify.

 

I have read a number of horror stories on here about engines with bigger cranks and pistons that have gone pop. Is it easy to find parts to go 2.1, and are they still reliable if second hand?

 

Supercharging also has its negatives, with the charger itself costing an arm and a leg if it fails. They aren't quiet either, also spiky seems to have managed to quiet his down. Does anyone know if they are noisy when pootling about, as I don't want to be waking the neighbours unnecessarily.

 

Those that have gone charged, without meaning to be harsh, have not put the neatness of the installation at the top of their list as they are track cars. As mentioned, arranging the cooling rads effectively seems a challenge if I want to keep it standard looking. However, the is a video on youtube that looks quite tasty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkr2LjSnhV0 (scroll to 1:22). This looks nice and neat but will it allow sufficient air to get to the radiator?

 

Apologies for all the questions!!

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Read my build thread to see about rad lowering and fitting bodies.

[Spiky 37]

GMAN, i'll reply to each paragraph

 

drive style, this is a big area to get gains, hence i learnt to drive before getting lots of power, i'm a smooth driver, but too cautious, unless confident, so that takes time , but big gains with being smooth

 

itb or SC is fine for road, and i mean fine, there is no rush of power with rotrex, eaton, is probably a different story, but still not unusale on the road, far from it

 

yeah, i had a cam'd 306 and itb 205 and the gain really didnt justify the power increase, it was noticable on track, but only becuase there was 4 205's going on track days and i could out drag them, lightness may have helped here too, sc is not too much for the road, as i said above

 

there is no noise with rotrex, so your info there is wrong , if (and i was, until i changed) your car is running a restriced exhaust, it will be louder, than it was itb or std, due to the extra gases being force our a small bore, once i went to 2.5" and decent box's ll silent again, but no while from rotrex, if there is, it's buggered

 

 

i wouldnt say mine wasnt neat? maybe ecu placed better, but not sure what else you can do, as mine was all black and not stupid blue/red /silver, noting stood out

 

hope that helps

 

again , all my opionions

[Roon 29 1 Cars]

This makes for some interesting reading!

 

From my experience be it not in my 205 but a other light weight fun car bodies are awesome... When all is well. But it's so much money and time and stress to get everything lovely and reliable ish. And the actual power gains really are not a lot for the money. Noise and feel is epic but in the real world it's a pain.

 

If used on the road bodies attract way way to much attention even when your not being a complete 17 year old and then there is the fuel economy.

 

Being able to slap a proven and well designed supercharger on a totally bog standard 16 valver and from what I can see really very reliable is a lucky thing and you cannot ignore such huge gains for equivalent money '2nd hand'.

 

And in the real world a total bloody weapon surely.

[Sandy 191]

The big variable in all cases, is how well thought out the set up is and how well mapped they are. Knowing how commonly TB set ups are just bought and bolted on, with little real consideration and how rare good mapping really is to see; I'm not surprised alot of people aren't really big on that route. The differences that can be made by different inlet manifolds, trumpets, injectors even; can make it good or bad easily (and hugely impact economy, good ITB set ups should be better than orginal during normal driving); unfortunately not many people have good data to make choices on or don't really care or whatever. Also the noise thing is becomeing more of an issue both on the circuit and on the road. If you overtake these days on the road in any car, you're likely to get negative hand gestures, flashed lights etc, but with an armageddon soundtrack added, you're a criminal by anyone else's reckoning. All these points make me sad, because for people like me that feel an emotional response to induction bark and love the razor incisiveness of well designed and set up ITBs; it makes the car and puts so much joy into it. Boosted engines don't do it for me at all and only highlight the weaknesses of the chassis to constantly irritate; that squirmy elastic band propelled feeling just feels crude.

 

I power/pound is the priority, then no doubt SC has a major advantage, although I question how cheaply you can really do it, DIYers always seem to indicate costs as much less than seems realistic (at least until the come to sell or take a dislike to it!) You can do ITBs very cheaply too if you take a real scrapyard challenge approach, but it does tend to show! I have done ITB set ups on a number of competition standard engined 106/205/306s that have gone considerably quicker against the clock after, there's no doubt in my mind that there are performance advantages both in the power gain and delivery; but it has to be done right!

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

If going fast on a circuit is your aim, TB's. If you want "giant killing" grunt then forced induction.

I can drive my Mi on bodies far faster around Cadwell Park than I can my 1.6 8v turbo, part of that is the Mi car is lighter and stiffer, but also power delivery plays a massive part.

However on the road the Mi wouldn't see where the turbo car had fecked off to.

Mi is near 180bhp, turbo just over 200, but its the torque that makes grunt, Mi 145ftlb, turbo 210ftlb.

[Matt180 31]

S/C all the way, only thing I miss about my TB's is the noise. My car was just over 200bhp and I was lapping Cadwel around 1.50 depend on traffic. With the S/C now well over 350bhp im at the 1.40 mark....that's as quick as the radicals and other single seaters. To be honest i'm not even stretching its legs at Cadwel either, at Nurburging I was out running Skyline GTR's, Porshce GT3rs's and a Corvette LS7 on the straights.

 

Even on a low boost setup (250 bhp ish) you're looking at well over 300bhp/ton and plenty of torque to go with it.