NFS 32 Posted December 1, 2013 Hi guys. I'm just about to get my tracking done as I have put 309 bones on. It's for my everyday road car so what toe out should I have for better turn in? Or should I get it dead straight? Cheers 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brumster 135 1 Cars Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) Are you running big torque? Anything non-standard about the car other than the wishbones? I would go parallel, but if you must then go no more than half a degree toe-out at the worst (IMO). Edited December 1, 2013 by brumster Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rallyeash 155 Posted December 1, 2013 Rather than starting a new thread what would you set it too if running plenty of grunt? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 1, 2013 Running standardish 2.0 8v turbo. And mods are 309 bones and shalfs however I will be looking for a 24mm rarb and it's stripped inside. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brumster 135 1 Cars Posted December 1, 2013 I found that on rally geometry (so 1.2deg negative camber, group A wishbones, 309ish track, lowered and agressive plate diff) with what I'm guessing is about 180ft.lb of torque, the standard wishbones bushes would deflect and on hard power on uneven surfaces you'd get more toe-in, so by setting them parallel you'd get toe-in under power. Therefore I now set a fraction of toe-out so that, on hard power, the wheels come in to parallel. Now if you've got standard geometry, not big grunt or rose-jointed inners this probably doesn't apply, but I just found a little toe-out beneficial for me. But it's hardly a road car. Maybe start at parallel, if you find it wavey under power (and assuming all the rest of the suspension is in good condition, particularly with regards to lower ball joints and pinch bolts!) then toe it out a smidgen... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rallyeash 155 Posted December 1, 2013 That's exactly what I experience on the road. Fine on smooth track and I have around 180lbft. Will look at a little toe out. Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allanallen 528 2 Cars Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) Get the rack centred and set parallel, you can then mark up the positions (by scribing lines on the arms) then you can faff with the tracking and play with a bit of toe out. With you having an open diff you may well prefer parallel, toe out can sometimes make the car feel a bit nervous everyday driving so you may not get on with it. Edited December 1, 2013 by allanallen 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 1, 2013 I got it centered and parallel in the end. I don't know weather it's the extra camber or my over eganess with the car but it seems to want to oversteer a lot more than it did. What can be done to center the car again? Will it just be a case of getting a bigger rarb? Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miles 331 1 Cars Posted December 1, 2013 I go for around 1 to 1.5 toe out, Works very well I think anyway. I know people run allot more than that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshpug 1,646 Posted December 1, 2013 why do you want less oversteer? that's the whole point of a 205! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allanallen 528 2 Cars Posted December 1, 2013 Bigger rear arb with induce more oversteer! Yay Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 1, 2013 It's making me nervous. It doesn't feel balanced. Just feels like it was to oversteer all the time around a bend now. So should I be stiffening up the front now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brumster 135 1 Cars Posted December 2, 2013 *Generally* if oversteer is your problem then go softer on the back/harder on the front. But spring rates are not necessarily your problem, of course, could be knackered rear subframe bushes, knackered rear arms/stub pins, knackered/seized rear beam, knackered shocks, etc etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony 1,002 Posted December 2, 2013 Not got an ovalled hub or loose pinch bolt have you? 309 wishbones on their own won't turn the car into a super-sideways oversteering monster and nor will slight adjustments to the tracking, but ovalled or unclamped hubs will result in a nasty mid-bend lurch/snatch that is really quite disconcerting and will/can unsettle the car. Given that you've just changed the wishbones you will have disturbed both, so well worth checking. As has been mentioned, a bigger rear ARB will make the car even more eager to turn in and oversteer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) *Generally* if oversteer is your problem then go softer on the back/harder on the front. But spring rates are not necessarily your problem, of course, could be knackered rear subframe bushes, knackered rear arms/stub pins, knackered/seized rear beam, knackered shocks, etc etc... Yeah you have a good point, im not sure what the bushes are like and i think the shocks are s*ite anyway. I think the rear arms bearing and pins are okay as i have inspected them already. how can i tell if the subframe bushes are fooked? Not got an ovalled hub or loose pinch bolt have you? 309 wishbones on their own won't turn the car into a super-sideways oversteering monster and nor will slight adjustments to the tracking, but ovalled or unclamped hubs will result in a nasty mid-bend lurch/snatch that is really quite disconcerting and will/can unsettle the car. Given that you've just changed the wishbones you will have disturbed both, so well worth checking. As has been mentioned, a bigger rear ARB will make the car even more eager to turn in and oversteer. Well i dont think so, all the wishbone bolts where done up tight so there not lose, if i had an overal hub wouldnt my steering be all over the place? like my balljoint was gone? the front feels tight and precise and understeer is minimal, its just the back seems to go light, for example i was going continiously round a roundabout at about 15 MPH and the back end started slipping out. Edited December 2, 2013 by NFS Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 243 3 Cars Posted December 2, 2013 if i had an overal hub wouldnt my steering be all over the place? like my balljoint was gone?Not necessarily imo, an oval hub will show its self in two main ways, pulling the car around during on / off power very similar to worn wishbone bushes but more during cornering when an oval hub lets the balljoint pin move in the hub when loaded up, effectively tightening the lock & making the car feel very nervous. g Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 3, 2013 Okay, thanks, i did notice when i was fitting my 309 bones that my pass side wouldnt tap into place, i tapped it with a hammer but it just fell out again, the other side was a tight fit so i could tap it with the hammer under the ball joint and it held into place. but the other side didnt, i had to get a jack under it to jack it up to hold it there while i put the pin in. so you think it could be a overal BJ hole. how would i be able to tell for def? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allanallen 528 2 Cars Posted December 3, 2013 I'd say I'm 99% sure it's buggered. If in good condition it would hold itself in position once in. It'd certainly explain your handling issues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshpug 1,646 Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) Shouldnt need to force them in at all, though they shouldnt just fall out. Just look at the clamp, itll be obvious. Edited December 3, 2013 by welshpug Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 3, 2013 Thanks i will take a look, does anyone have any pictures of an overal and good hub so i can compare? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allanallen 528 2 Cars Posted December 3, 2013 It's obvious, it'll not be round anymore! Put something 16mm into the hole (like a drill bit) and have a look at the shape of the hole. It'll probably wobble about as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFS 32 Posted December 3, 2013 Cheers i will give it a go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshpug 1,646 Posted December 3, 2013 Yes, imagine a round thing, like a tennis ball, not a rugby ball... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites