Toe Out Question

[NFS 32]

Hi guys. I'm just about to get my tracking done as I have put 309 bones on. It's for my everyday road car so what toe out should I have for better turn in? Or should I get it dead straight? Cheers

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Are you running big torque? Anything non-standard about the car other than the wishbones?

 

I would go parallel, but if you must then go no more than half a degree toe-out at the worst (IMO).

Edited December 1, 2013 by brumster

[rallyeash 155]

Rather than starting a new thread what would you set it too if running plenty of grunt?

[NFS 32]

Running standardish 2.0 8v turbo. And mods are 309 bones and shalfs however I will be looking for a 24mm rarb and it's stripped inside.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I found that on rally geometry (so 1.2deg negative camber, group A wishbones, 309ish track, lowered and agressive plate diff) with what I'm guessing is about 180ft.lb of torque, the standard wishbones bushes would deflect and on hard power on uneven surfaces you'd get more toe-in, so by setting them parallel you'd get toe-in under power. Therefore I now set a fraction of toe-out so that, on hard power, the wheels come in to parallel. Now if you've got standard geometry, not big grunt or rose-jointed inners this probably doesn't apply, but I just found a little toe-out beneficial for me. But it's hardly a road car.

 

Maybe start at parallel, if you find it wavey under power (and assuming all the rest of the suspension is in good condition, particularly with regards to lower ball joints and pinch bolts!) then toe it out a smidgen...

[rallyeash 155]

That's exactly what I experience on the road. Fine on smooth track and I have around 180lbft.

 

Will look at a little toe out. Cheers!

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Get the rack centred and set parallel, you can then mark up the positions (by scribing lines on the arms) then you can faff with the tracking and play with a bit of toe out. With you having an open diff you may well prefer parallel, toe out can sometimes make the car feel a bit nervous everyday driving so you may not get on with it.

Edited December 1, 2013 by allanallen

[NFS 32]

I got it centered and parallel in the end. I don't know weather it's the extra camber or my over eganess with the car but it seems to want to oversteer a lot more than it did. What can be done to center the car again? Will it just be a case of getting a bigger rarb? Cheers

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I go for around 1 to 1.5 toe out, Works very well I think anyway. I know people run allot more than that

[welshpug 1,655]

why do you want less oversteer? that's the whole point of a 205!

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Bigger rear arb with induce more oversteer! Yay

[NFS 32]

It's making me nervous. It doesn't feel balanced. Just feels like it was to oversteer all the time around a bend now. So should I be stiffening up the front now?

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

*Generally* if oversteer is your problem then go softer on the back/harder on the front. But spring rates are not necessarily your problem, of course, could be knackered rear subframe bushes, knackered rear arms/stub pins, knackered/seized rear beam, knackered shocks, etc etc...

[Anthony 1,002]

Not got an ovalled hub or loose pinch bolt have you?

 

309 wishbones on their own won't turn the car into a super-sideways oversteering monster and nor will slight adjustments to the tracking, but ovalled or unclamped hubs will result in a nasty mid-bend lurch/snatch that is really quite disconcerting and will/can unsettle the car. Given that you've just changed the wishbones you will have disturbed both, so well worth checking.

 

As has been mentioned, a bigger rear ARB will make the car even more eager to turn in and oversteer.

[NFS 32]

*Generally* if oversteer is your problem then go softer on the back/harder on the front. But spring rates are not necessarily your problem, of course, could be knackered rear subframe bushes, knackered rear arms/stub pins, knackered/seized rear beam, knackered shocks, etc etc...

 

Yeah you have a good point, im not sure what the bushes are like and i think the shocks are s*ite anyway. I think the rear arms bearing and pins are okay as i have inspected them already. how can i tell if the subframe bushes are fooked?

 

 

Not got an ovalled hub or loose pinch bolt have you?

 

309 wishbones on their own won't turn the car into a super-sideways oversteering monster and nor will slight adjustments to the tracking, but ovalled or unclamped hubs will result in a nasty mid-bend lurch/snatch that is really quite disconcerting and will/can unsettle the car. Given that you've just changed the wishbones you will have disturbed both, so well worth checking.

 

As has been mentioned, a bigger rear ARB will make the car even more eager to turn in and oversteer.

 

 

Well i dont think so, all the wishbone bolts where done up tight so there not lose, if i had an overal hub wouldnt my steering be all over the place? like my balljoint was gone?

 

the front feels tight and precise and understeer is minimal, its just the back seems to go light, for example i was going continiously round a roundabout at about 15 MPH and the back end started slipping out.

Edited December 2, 2013 by NFS

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

if i had an overal hub wouldnt my steering be all over the place? like my balljoint was gone?

Not necessarily imo, an oval hub will show its self in two main ways, pulling the car around during on / off power very similar to worn wishbone bushes but more during cornering when an oval hub lets the balljoint pin move in the hub when loaded up, effectively tightening the lock & making the car feel very nervous.

 

g

[NFS 32]

Okay, thanks, i did notice when i was fitting my 309 bones that my pass side wouldnt tap into place, i tapped it with a hammer but it just fell out again, the other side was a tight fit so i could tap it with the hammer under the ball joint and it held into place. but the other side didnt, i had to get a jack under it to jack it up to hold it there while i put the pin in. so you think it could be a overal BJ hole. how would i be able to tell for def?

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I'd say I'm 99% sure it's buggered. If in good condition it would hold itself in position once in. It'd certainly explain your handling issues.

[welshpug 1,655]

Shouldnt need to force them in at all, though they shouldnt just fall out.

 

Just look at the clamp, itll be obvious.

Edited December 3, 2013 by welshpug

[NFS 32]

Thanks i will take a look, does anyone have any pictures of an overal and good hub so i can compare?

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

It's obvious, it'll not be round anymore! Put something 16mm into the hole (like a drill bit) and have a look at the shape of the hole. It'll probably wobble about as well.

[NFS 32]

Cheers i will give it a go.

[welshpug 1,655]

Yes, imagine a round thing, like a tennis ball, not a rugby ball...