Rfs Looms Into Zx16V - Help Please...

[Samson1886 0]

I have one Citroen ZX 16V equipped with RFY engine & looms.

Changed the Head to XU10J4R. Retain the origin block.

Concurrently, managed to get one used GTI6 looms & ECU (unlocked)

Do numerous search & readings on this forum.

 

I managed to mate the GTI6 looms with ZX16V dash looms.

Plug in the battery and switch ignition on, all the dash lights lit up. The MIL in the dash also lit up as expected. (The MIL not blinking)

 

When come to start firing / cranking the engine, I just couldn’t get it started.

The symptom is when cranking, the engine sounds wanted to fired up, however, it only last for 2 – 4 seconds, and it coughing then die naturally. To me, it is seems started but struggling on stabilizing the idling hence, it dies…

I thought there are perhaps some wiring connection wrong, hence have make an effort to troubleshoot a little more extra mile.

 

What I did is ensure switch live +12V are connected to relay pin 14.

Pin 8, 15, 2 & 11 at the relay are connected +12V.

 

I have also checked, the fuel pump working, meaning it does prime. There are spark on ignition coil as well. Have checked each of the ignition coil. Fuel Injector also been checked to ensure there are fuel present during cranking.

However, I just couldn’t get her fired up and have running out of clue.

 

Anyone had encountered this experience and can enlighten me, please?

[dcc 855]

Have you got fuel cut off switch?

 

Welshpug has done this wiring conversion successfully.

 

Have you had the engine running with the new head fitted on old management?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

What have you done with the Cam sensor?

[Samson1886 0]

Have you got fuel cut off switch?

Welshpug has done this wiring conversion successfully.

Have you had the engine running with the new head fitted on old management?

Yes. I do have fuel cut off switch. Have checked that too and confirm there are fuel to the injector.

As for new head, i didn't run it with old management before.

Do you think this would probably the root cause?

[Samson1886 0]

What have you done with the Cam sensor?

The head (XU10J4R) original is without cam sensor. However, what I did is drill a hole and install the cam sensor. The location is same as 6 head. No?

 

Initially I though the ECU locked, but I do get spark on all 4 coil during cranking. So now confuse!!!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The XU10J4 engine has the cam sensor on the inlet cam in the thermostat housing, Well I say does but on all European spec car's it does. But the RS ECU Will need it

[Samson1886 0]

Miles, you are correct. XU10J4 does has cam sensor at the inlet cam on top of the thermostat housing.

As for XU10J4R, the location of this cam sensor is situated same as RS head, however there are no holes. Probably Asian spec is different compare Europe spec.

 

What I did is drill/bore the hole & plug the cam sensor into J4R head. The location of the sensor is exactly as RS head.

 

Now the RS loom has been equipped with all the necessary sensors as required. I just couldn't get it started...

 

What would went wrong?

 

Photo shown ZX16V block with J4R Head. Note the the cam sensor has been added in. Coil packs & loom is RFS @ GTI6.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

As I have no knowledge of other engines, does the R have the lobe on the Cam wheel for the sensor?

[welshpug 1,657]

yes, the inlet pulley outer is the same part, just has a different hub.

 

I see you are on the RFV inlet manifold, check the TPS operation, it may be different and require re-wiring.

[Anthony 1,003]

You can safely just unplug the TPS for testing purposes and the car should start and drive OK.

[Samson1886 0]

yes, the inlet pulley outer is the same part, just has a different hub.

 

I see you are on the RFV inlet manifold, check the TPS operation, it may be different and require re-wiring.

Noted. Will have it check and revert the result.

By the way, aren't TPS is the same part use in RFV, RFY, RFX & RFS?

[Samson1886 0]

You can safely just unplug the TPS for testing purposes and the car should start and drive OK.

Sure will test it out too. Will keep you guys posted.

Meantime if you think of any other possibilities solution, do let me know.

 

Thanks!

[Samson1886 0]

Tested with TPS unplug and give a try. There are no joy.

Check TPS, Cam & Crank sensor wiring just to be sure, all seems to be okay. Couldn't find any mismatch.

 

Again, I re-confirm the relay wiring just to be sure, everything seem to be connected correctly.

 

Out of sudden, recall on what Welshpug mentioned about my RFV manifold and am thinking I've checked TPS, Cam & Crank sensor, but NOT Map sensor.

 

The map sensor is sitting underneath of inlet manifold. So, before I call it a day, just give the last shot by unplugging the map sensor.

One crank, the engine fired up and idling constant!

 

Finally, we hear the engine getting alive back and it is real joy!!!

 

However we have no clue why is this happening. Could the map sensor is duff? Or RFS has different part number on the sensor?

 

Can anyone confirm what is the part number for RFS map sensor?

 

Thank you!!!

[welshpug 1,657]

the rfs may be a different part number however I believe electronically and physically the same, have run an XU7 map sensor on an ES9 engine without issue.

[Samson1886 0]

I found one gti6 map sensor (Bosch 0261230057). Plug to the manifold and crank the engine, she fired up but won't last long. It will die after several minutes of idling. How come?

 

Could it be due to RFV in let manifold having different restricted volume of air going in resulted different reading captured by map sensor and got confuse?

[Samson1886 0]

I thought i've solve the quest, but i was wrong.

 

It seems that the moment i plug in the map sensor, the engine will start coughing and rough idling. It will die thereafter.

 

If i unplug the map sensor, it can be started, idling look much more better & sounds pretty normal, HOWEVER, when i start playing / flip with the throttle, it dies... i really not sure what went wrong....

 

welshpug - please englighten me. herewith i attached photos and see if i am missing something?

 

 

And the interesting part is, when i put a separate loom & management (RFX / XU10J2) into this very same engine, it crank and fire up flawlessly. Nothing seems to be wrong on the engine.

But when put in RFS / GTI6 management & loom, it just doesn't work well.

 

[welshpug 1,657]

I have no idea, your car looks to have quite different wiring to mine, I just found this quite good RFS 306 loom diagram, however the Xsara is laid out a little different afaik.

 

 

then there's these plugs from my ZX.

 

 

 

and this is the 306 plugs that were cut off and replaced with the ones above.

 

 

 

 

 

oh and there's this ZX pinout list from my earlier project thread.

 

large black round plug:

1-starter motor thick yellow
2-ignition switched+ thick yellow
3-alternator excitor blk
4-oil pressure switch brown
5-coolant temp switch beige
6-reverse light switch grey
7-reverse light switch grey
8-coolant temp sender brown
9-oil level green
10-oil level green
11-oil temp beige
12-oil pressure sensor green
13-diagnostic light grey

separate brown plug 4 way:
1-
2-rev counter
3-fuel pump
4-

 

 

 

and here's a diagram that shows the 306's engine loom to front end loom connections, the 1C02A 23v NR plug is the 23 pin plug, and the 1C02B 14v NR is the smaller plug.

 

 

 

http://peugeot.mainspot.net/wiring306/xu7jp4.shtml is the full link which will show you each component and wire number.

 

it is for the XU7, but the connection to the front end loom is typically very similar, certainly all the wire numbers for particular functions will be the same.

[Samson1886 0]

Thanks Welshpug! Appreciate on the diagram provided. It's a big help for me as reference.

 

I've been busy with my work on these couples of days hence there are no updates on the progress.

Nevertheless, manage to slot some time in the afternoon today look into progress.

 

Welshpug, the 4 plugs that you shown in the photo is exactly same as what I am having too.

 

Manage to re-check again on my loom and I am pretty sure the loom has been connected correctly.

 

Why?

 

I've make another simulation. What I did is get another map sensor and connected externally. Start the engine. Idling seems normal but bare in mind the the map sensor is not plug into the manifold. Instead it was leaving at atmosphere.

When start to play with throttle, it seems it can be revved smoothly however when releasing the throttle, where it has difficulties to stabilize the idling. It will either drop below 600-700rpm then pull it back around 900rpm or it will die.

 

Another scenario simulation is with the purge canister hose where it was connected at the throttle body. Unplug the hose, we put the map sensor as close as possible towards the purge canister hose at throttle body and blip the throttle and it seems positive.

 

I've also connected with Lexia via diagnostic plug and monitor the parameter specifically for manifold pressure.

Whenever I unplug the map sensor, the parameter indicate '123 mb'. When map sensor connected, it indicate 999 mb.

The moment I start the engine with map sensor connected yet it is still place close the the purge canister hose at throttle body, the manifold pressure indicate in Lexia, hovering 4xx - 6xx mb depending on revving the throttle. This sounds normal to me.

 

On the other hand, the moment I plug the map sensor back to original place at manifold, where it suppose to, again the reading is 999mb but it won't able to play with throttle. The reading will not change too.

 

So, my conclusion is that, RFV inlet manifold (or probably with the throttle body together) is not compatible with RFS management.

I am assuming RFS inlet manifold is having much large air volume & that is how the management work. Wherelse RFV inlet manifold is pretty much restricted air inside and this has resulted the AFR calculation were wrong.

 

What do you all think?

 

Now the next step is getting RFS inlet manifold & throttle body to test it out and see if my assumption is correct or wrong.

 

Requested favor from friend of mine who he has RFS engine. Will take his inlet manifold & throttle body to test it out.

 

Will keep you guys updated once obtain.

[Samson1886 0]

Hi guys,

 

Have a quick update on the progress experiment.

My initial assumption is correct. The RFV manifold & t/body may not suitable for RFS management.

Using the same RFS LOOMS, I've plug into another ZX which has been converted to gti6 engine.

Once the looms in place and connected, it started flawlessly!

 

Lesson learned!