Brake Upgrade Confusion With 1.6L 205 Gti

[thedude2u 1]

All,

 

I am somewhat new to the 205 GTI scene. I have admired the vehicle for quite some time, but I was only recently able to legally purchase a 1988 1.6L GTI in the USA under the 25 year exemption rule. I have a vehicle that has zero rust, but is in need of some mechanical TLC.

 

I am looking to keep the vehicle somewhat stock but improve braking performance. When I purchased the vehicle, it had a leaky wheel cylinder in the right rear, so I am planning to fully rebuild the rear drum brakes with all new component. The shocks are also in poor shape, so I have a Bilstein Group N tarmac kit coming next week.

 

I would like to refresh the front brakes as well, but I am confused with my brake upgrade options. It sounds like my upgrades are limited unless I use the 1.9L hubs. What I would like to know is the following:

 

-If I stick with the standard 1.6L hub, can I use the 1.9L caliper with the standard size 1.6L rotor?

 

-If I cannot upgrade to the 1.9L caliper without changing the hub, what would you recommend as a 1.6L replacement rotor? Brembo? I have looked at EBC, Mintex and Ferodo pads. What pads would you recommend for a street car?

 

Parts have so far proven expensive to import with the exchange rate and shipping. I'm not looking to spend a fortune on the front brakes. I just want a bit more performance for street driving.

 

 

Any help is appreciated. There aren't many enthusiasts in the states that I can turn to for help.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Joe

 

 

[jackherer 543]

Welcome to the forum

 

Is this the graphite grey one that was on ebay.com recently?

[Slo 283 1 Cars]

By far the best upgrade to any braking system is braided brake hoses to replace the rubber crap that expands and takes up some of the pedal travel. with 1.6 hubs, your pretty much stuck with 1.6 brakes as the whole hubs disc and caliper setup is a different offset to 1.9. If you go the 1.9 route you will have to buy 1.9 hubs, driveshafts, calipers, discs, and pads pretty expensive since you will have to import them. I have a very heavy cast iron block in mine and new master cylinder and braided hoses fitted and new discs and pads and its quite good for standard braking despite the colossal weight.

[thedude2u 1]

Yes. This was the one on Ebay/Bring-A-Trailer. I have received it and it the body/interior is in very good shape. I am very pleased that I don't have to do any cosmetic refurb. The ironic thing is that right after I purchased, a second GTI popped up in Windsor (across the boarder from Detroit). I might go take a look at it as well. I'm sure I'd be the only chap in the USA with two GTI's!

 

Okay, so to summarize what I am hearing:

 

- I can't upgrade the brakes calipers without swapping out some major components from the 1.9L.

-The best path foward is stainless lines, a good set of street/track pads. Suggestions? Mintex?

-I still can't find any info on rotors. What does everyone buy as an OE replacement for the 1.6L? Brembo?

 

Is an upgraded master cylinder worth it, or should I just inspect and stick with the OE 1.6L master cylinder? I take it upgrading to the 406(?) master cylinder would give me extremely short pedal travel and make the brakes difficult to modulate. Does this sound correct?

 

Thanks for the information so far. I can't afford to make a mistake on the brake parts as shipping is very expensive. I need to get the order right on the first try.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Joe

Edited September 16, 2013 by thedude2u

[jackherer 543]

It does look good in the photos, and it still has a month of MOT left!

 

You can use 1.9 calipers on 1.6 hubs with 1.6 discs. You will need the bolts to hold the calipers to the hub too as these are different.

 

1.9 calipers are a bit heavier but they are more reliable IMO.

 

You're right about the master cylinder, don't fit a larger one with standard size calipers.

[thedude2u 1]

Hmmm. Just wondering if I inspect the 1.6L calipers and they are in good nick (maybe lube them with copper grease)...should I just keep them and upgrade the pads, rotors and lines? It sounds like I can't go wrong with the Mintex or Ferodo pads for the 1.6L. Heck, even the EBC Greens have good reviews for street use and they are much cheaper to import. Goodridge seems to supply most of the stainless lines for around 70 pounds for a set. I just need a recommendation on a set of rotors. For a basic rotor (vented, no drills/slots) I could just use a warehouse parts store at less than 20 pounds per rotor. I just hope all the wheel bearings are ok as I haven't ordered anything to replace them

[allye 530 3 Cars]

with 1.6 hubs, your pretty much stuck with 1.6 brakes

This is incorrect. You can fit 1.9 calipers no problem as Kieran says.

[DamirGTI 340]

By far the best upgrade to any braking system is braided brake hoses

 

+1 Braides brake lines - very neat braking upgrade .

 

Discs/rotors , i like German stuff - ATE , Zimmerman .. or Textar , Bendix . Grooved rather than drilled .

 

Pads - if it's an road car i'd "avoid" harsh pads .. Particularly ones which are meant for racing purposes (not only they'll eat up the discs faster , but will need to reach certain temp. to the point to bite/brake properly .. not to mention the squeakiness !) , ATE discs paired with ATE pads are really nice combo for daily drive (strong bite and quiet) , Zimmerman discs paired with Ferodo pads (found this to be interesting combo) , Pagid , Mintex , Carbon Lorraine pads (pricey!).. OE pads are really good as well .

 

Also very important - need to bead in the brakes properly upon fitting new ones , this will ensure even wear , no squeakiness and the most important stronger brake bite/stopping force .

 

D

[thedude2u 1]

Okay thanks. Some say the 1.9 calipers won't work on the 1.6L without the hubs. It sounds like they will in fact work with the 1.6L rotor so long as you have the 1.9L mounting bolts. Thanks everyone for helping clear this up. This was causing me a great deal of confusion.

 

The brake system is getting a full overhaul, so there won't be a drop of original fluid left by the time I'm done. Thans for the disc/pad recommendation. This will be a great help while I am browsing through some of the UK supply sites. I just wish that damned pound-dollar exchange wasn't so high! Sound a pound huh

Edited September 16, 2013 by thedude2u

[jackherer 543]

(maybe lube them with copper grease)

Copper grease is good for the back of the pads to prevent squeal and on bolts so they don't seize but don't use it as a lubricant, it has copper particles in that are abrasive. Use a suitable lubricant grease on the sliders.

 

As long as they slide freely and don't have excess play then cleaning and re-greasing them should be fine.

[Liquid_106 97 1 Cars]

Have you seen the article covering this subject?:

 

http://www.205gtidrivers.com/articles.html/_/articles-guides/brakes-suspension-steering/205-front-hub-differences-what-brakes-fit-etc-r90

[thedude2u 1]

Very good article. I guess I should have been searching through the articles rather than digging through forum posts. Thanks!

Edited September 16, 2013 by thedude2u

[Slo 283 1 Cars]

You can use 1.9 calipers on 1.6 hubs with 1.6 discs. You will need the bolts to hold the calipers to the hub too as these are different.

 

This is incorrect. You can fit 1.9 calipers no problem as Kieran says.

Really? No one told me that when i asked the same question they just said no, so can gti-6 brakes be used on 1.6 hubs too?

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

That's because of the discs, not the caliper.

The offset of the 1.6 discs is different. If you fit 1.9 calipers on 1.6 hub, you still need the 1.6 discs.

There are no 283mm discs with the same offset as the 1.6 discs.

 

For parts, you could also check http://www.mister-auto.com/

Maybe the euro2dollar exchange rate is better than pounds2dollar

[Slo 283 1 Cars]

Well that's cleared that up nice and simple thanks wish everything was answered as fast and simple as that on here

[DamirGTI 340]

Use a suitable lubricant grease on the sliders.

 

 

 

Silicone grease

 

D

[pug_ham 243 3 Cars]

Use a suitable lubricant grease on the sliders.

A decent lithium base grease with wide temperature range is best imo, NOT copper grease on the sliders.

 

Silicone grease

Silicone grease is more low temp operation isn't it? The silicone grease I've used is anyway & I wouldn't use it on caliper sliders as the calipers get pretty hot.

 

g

[MikeC 10]

MolyKote high temp for the sliders

[DamirGTI 340]

 

A decent lithium base grease with wide temperature range is best imo, NOT copper grease on the sliders.

 

 

Silicone grease is more low temp operation isn't it? The silicone grease I've used is anyway & I wouldn't use it on caliper sliders as the calipers get pretty hot.

 

g

 

I have an tube of silicone grease for use on brake sliders made by ATE , it says up to 400-475 deg. temp. resistant . So , yes and no ! there's low and high grades of this grease . It's made of silicone oil and fumed silica .

Anyway , the idea is to use it just on the sliders where other petroleum based lubricants (lithium being one of them as well) are kinda bad choice cos they'll eat the rubber boots

 

Ceramlub is by far the best (for all the brake "greasing" applications) .

 

D

Edited September 20, 2013 by DamirGTI