Driveshafts And Plated Diff

[205jsy 0 1 Cars]

Hi all

 

Sort of just competed in my first rally (l'etacq attack in jersey) went out on the second stage with a broken drivers side driveshaft, it was a tight corner with an up hill climb when the driveshaft snapped.

 

Here's a picture as we went around the corner as it snapped.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=577728835592579&set=a.577720962260033.1073741834.155449631153837&type=3&theater

 

The car is running about 170 bhp with gkn driveshafts and trans x diff, I'm looking to buy some competition driveshafts, I've been searching the web and found these

http://www.spoox.co.uk/en/peugeot-309/3230-peugeot-309-gti-competition-driveshafts-pair.html

 

Has anyone had any experience with this company and there shafts or are there better ones on the market?

 

Also when the driveshaft snapped the car rolled to a stop and wouldn't go, I'm I right in thinking with a plated diff like trans x the diff should of locked and still powered the other wheel and got me to the end of stage?

[welshpug 1,661]

http://www.davemacprops.com/DMPHOME.html

 

I'd try them before spunking nearly £800 driveshafts!!

 

I doubt you will need to do that until you are well over 200 bhp or running lots of torque, a 306 gti has 167 bhp and copes just fine without £800 driveshafts!

 

I often service for a 170 bhp saxo running a BE box and that is standard 306 shafts shortened on the rhs, never had any shaft breakages.

 

 

whether a plated diff will get you out of the stage with a broken shaft depends on how worn it is and how tight it is setup.

Edited June 17, 2013 by welshpug

[205jsy 0 1 Cars]

Ok thanks, I was being a bit aggressive with the power on near full lock.

[welshpug 1,661]

Which bit actually broke? The cv or the bar shaft?

[Chris H 10]

Hi Matthew, My sister told me you'd had some driveshaft issues and might need some help.

 

Firstly, no shaft will be happy taking full throttle on full lock as you would have coming out of a hairpin etc. Adapting your driving style slightly will help reduce the chance of a shaft breakage.

 

However some shafts seem to take it abuse better than others. The older GKN shafts were mega but sice they changed the design (now usually with gkn loboro on the box) they are useless and only last a couple of stages. Sice the old GKN shafvt dried up, i've been using the Interparts shafts with very good results, as have many of my friends. Been coping with my 200bhp 205 ok. Think these are available from dave Mac's, spoox and other places.

 

However, depending on your diff setup, it should drive out of the stage ok.....i run my diffs in the "fully interleaved" set up giving the full complement of friction surfaces and a fairly high pre-load with 45/45 ramp angles. This has got me out of a few stages on one shaft, not flat out, but at a reasonable pace. It's like driving with a badly slipping clutch, just be gentle with the throttle and keep the momentum going.

 

If you need any help getting bits and or getting stuff to jersey, i can probably help.

 

Cheers

Chris

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Ah shafts, the new "oil surge" debate for the future I reckon

 

Completely agree with WP, you shouldn't need £800 shafts for the sort of power/torque you're putting out. The problem is the quality of the available ones out there now, since most have been recon'd.

 

I won't name names of suppliers but can I just suggest everyone does ONE thing wherever they get their shafts from - particularly 309 ones. CHECK THE PLUNGE on them once fitted. Should be somewhere between 6mm and 20mm - certainly no more than 20mm.

Edited June 18, 2013 by brumster

[welshpug 1,661]

Agreed there with the plunge, DCC had some a few years ago that had ZERO plunge, the shaft was pushing the engine sideways even with the wishbones at full droop

 

Though that will specifically affect the inner joint if there is too much, it wont stop you breaking the outers I would imagine.

[chipstick 382 1 Cars]

Recently fitted 309 shafts so with regards to 'plunge' - is that the movement of the outer CV joints when checking for play?

[welshpug 1,661]

Is how much the bar shaft will move inwards when suspension is at normal ride height if you had the hub nut loose (or off) if I understand it correctly.

 

There should be hardly any movement in the outer joints.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Aye, but pull it fully outwards first so take the hub nut off (or leave it partly on enough to pull the outer shaft fully outwards, then take it off). Measure to the face of the hub. Now push it in as far as it'll go, and measure that too. Now calculate the difference ie. how much travel you have there.

 

It should just give you a rough idea of how much capacity for movement is in the CV. Too much suggests that the shaft is too short (or your hub is too far out!)... obviously some space is needed to allow the CV to slide along the tripoid joint as the suspension moves up and down - full bump and full droop are the worst (and on full lock at the same time is asking for trouble!). Likewise if you've got very *little* movement there then you leave yourself open to issues of running the tripoid too far into the CV which would cause wear issues. The latter is less of a problem - it's usually too much movement that's the problem, which indicates short shafts for your given setup.

 

They're just guideline figures I've used for 1.9 hubs on 309 shafts; other hub types or shaft types might differ I guess.

[205jsy 0 1 Cars]

Hi Matthew, My sister told me you'd had some driveshaft issues and might need some help.

 

Firstly, no shaft will be happy taking full throttle on full lock as you would have coming out of a hairpin etc. Adapting your driving style slightly will help reduce the chance of a shaft breakage.

 

However some shafts seem to take it abuse better than others. The older GKN shafts were mega but sice they changed the design (now usually with gkn loboro on the box) they are useless and only last a couple of stages. Sice the old GKN shafvt dried up, i've been using the Interparts shafts with very good results, as have many of my friends. Been coping with my 200bhp 205 ok. Think these are available from dave Mac's, spoox and other places.

 

However, depending on your diff setup, it should drive out of the stage ok.....i run my diffs in the "fully interleaved" set up giving the full complement of friction surfaces and a fairly high pre-load with 45/45 ramp angles. This has got me out of a few stages on one shaft, not flat out, but at a reasonable pace. It's like driving with a badly slipping clutch, just be gentle with the throttle and keep the momentum going.

 

If you need any help getting bits and or getting stuff to jersey, i can probably help.

 

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris

 

Thanks for you help, yer spoke to your sister in service.

 

When we came to a stop I tried releasing the clutch again and it did feel like The clutch was slipping but didn't want to go anywhere, so I'm thinking it must have 30/45 ramp plates.

 

Just sent and email to previous owner about what ramp angle the diffs running.

Would the plates have it stamped on on them what angle they are?

 

 

Are you putting an entry for jersey rally this year?

 

Thanks Matt

[205jsy 0 1 Cars]

Which bit actually broke? The cv or the bar shaft?

Bar shaft snapped clean in half.

[welshpug 1,661]

in the middle?! very unusual! I believe they tend to break the outer CV to bits or if the shaft does go they go at the base of the splines, or the inner cup lets go.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Been there done that

 

[205jsy 0 1 Cars]

Wow not that clean of a break.

 

Just taken a picture and it wasn't the middle.

 

Edited June 18, 2013 by 205jsy

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Well Tom, that's two I've seen now this is getting common!

 

I have 2 thoughts about shafts snapping like that (I've never done one myself but...)

 

1) Too *hard* a metal; too brittle that it's not allowing a degree of twist. I know a couple of guys rallying 205's who tried many an uprated shaft and both settled in the end for standard OEM shafts (back in the day you could get them) because their uprated ones exhibited more of this behaviour.

2) The chap I get my shafts off was quite clear to bed them in, and I've seen a case before (not on a Pug) where a shaft snapped like this and I suspected it was because the owner hadn't put any miles on it first. You really should bed them in for 100 mile before 'giving them the beans' so to speak. I'm not an expert myself but I know engineers who have agreed with the concept so I stick with it and put some miles on them first before I do an event.

[Chris H 10]

Don't think i'll be doing Jersey this year, maybe next year though.

 

If you need any help with getting bits to and from the idsland, just get in touch.

 

Definitley worth finding out whaat the plates are set as on your diff, if it's on the lightweight setting it will struggle to drive out of a stage on a broken shaft.

 

I've done about 3 miles on one shaft at Caerwent (and 3 wheels) and got back to service and fixed the car!

[GTI6BOY 29]

I always use standard pug driveshafts and have always had plate diffs and use my car for launching non stop. Never broken any part of a shaft in 8 years

[205jsy 0 1 Cars]

Right I've ordered the standard shafts off spoox.

 

Diff ramp angles are set at 30 deg (drive) / 60 deg (overrun)

 

Is that a lightweight setting?

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

That's your ramp angles, the configuration of the plates dictates the preload ie, lightweight or fully inter